To-Shin Do/Bujinkan

[bydand]

maccuda, if you don't mind me asking? Which school do you train in? Sounds like we share a very similier path in this art.

 

[maccuda]

Yes no problem Bydand, i currently train in the Nothants quest dojo in the UK
and yesh its should be similar if they are both To-shin do..

 

[saru1968]

Thats what confuses me....

I get mixed messages when i ask.

I've asked the Uk guy of Toshindo Mr Arthur and he tells me its seperate ie...

One lesson Toshindo, with grading in Toshindo.

Another 'classical ninjutsu' lesson with the option to gain Offical Bujinkan ranking.

I ask if there was cross over levels, ie learn 'X' amount in Toshindo equals 'X' grade in Bujinkan.

He quoted an American Toshindo website as 3rd Dan Bujinkan = 1st Dan Toshindo.

I could not follow how that works, it sounded so confusing..and still is.

Everyone else i have spoke too does not seem to know this system he talks of.

But if Toshindo is taught the way you say how does a student gain rank in Bujinkan then and moreso how do they get manage the yearly Bujinkan membership and Bujinkan grade fees.

This is not intended to cause problems its i've been looking for an answer on this for the past 18 months and its nice to have to conversation to understand the situation better.

I suppose to me it just makes sense to train in X art to rank in that art rather than train in X art to grade in X & Y.

cheers

Gary.


EDIT..BTW if you want to take this to PM in case its sidelining the thread please do.

 

[maccuda]

well its still under the umbrella of Toshindo isnt it so i guess we can discuss this openly.

My experience is that you train in To-shin do, thats what you grade in and nothing else.

What is the case however is that if you have previous knowledge that will give you an advance and you pick things up alot quicker thus advance quicker.
I was offered a higher belt when i started because of my Bujinkan history.
It does make sense but i think as you said one art is one art.

If i practice kickboxing and then go to karate, does that make me a higher belt there? No, you will have better understanding, thus advancing faster but i dont think it should be interchangable since they are different arts.

It was never mentioned to me that i could exchange my grade in To-shin do to a Bujinkan one, and i personally feel those 2 should be seprerate.

 

[lalom]

Thats what confuses me....

I get mixed messages when i ask.

I've asked the Uk guy of Toshindo Mr Arthur and he tells me its seperate ie...

One lesson Toshindo, with grading in Toshindo.

Another 'classical ninjutsu' lesson with the option to gain Offical Bujinkan ranking.

I ask if there was cross over levels, ie learn 'X' amount in Toshindo equals 'X' grade in Bujinkan.

He quoted an American Toshindo website as 3rd Dan Bujinkan = 1st Dan Toshindo.

I could not follow how that works, it sounded so confusing..and still is.

Everyone else i have spoke too does not seem to know this system he talks of.

But if Toshindo is taught the way you say how does a student gain rank in Bujinkan then and moreso how do they get manage the yearly Bujinkan membership and Bujinkan grade fees.

This is not intended to cause problems its i've been looking for an answer on this for the past 18 months and its nice to have to conversation to understand the situation better.

I suppose to me it just makes sense to train in X art to rank in that art rather than train in X art to grade in X & Y.

cheers

Gary.


EDIT..BTW if you want to take this to PM in case its sidelining the thread please do.

Saru,

You will get your answer directly if you visit www.carolinabujindo.com/forum. The thread answering your question is called "Ranking in Bujinkan?"

This is a To-Shin Do only forum for discussion of To-Shin Do. The question you raise was asked and answered. You can train in To-Shin Do curriculum and receive Bujinkan certification if one prefers it in lieu of a To-Shin Do one. Why one would do that? Have no clue.

 

[saru1968]

This will be my last post on the subject unless i need to repeond to something as i mention in my prior post 'pm' would have been more appropriate.

Yes, that was the thread Mr Arthur referenced to to and did not favours in promoting positive attitudes between Toshindo & Bujinkan by quoting the Toshindo Shodan equals Bujinkan Sandan.

I already thought i knew the answer and the issue was just being clouded by his posts, which was simply that to be graded in Bujinkan you needed a Bujinkan membership not just the grading fee for the certificate, but its old news now.

I'm also very grateful for the likes of Toshindo students, byland who are a shining example of how to conduct themselves.

But i totally agree with you post want to grade in Bujinkan then train Bujinkan, want to grade in Toshindo then train in Toshindo.

anyhow no more need be discusssed.

 

[SKB]

I must of missed something here?????? Did this thread not start out with the idea of talking about things which are the same???? I must of misunderstood........................

If you want to avoid a problem and really can't back up what you say with well established accounts, please just let this matter go in this thread and in the future.

Mr. Roley, you witnessed all of this? You were physicaly there and seen these things with your own eyes. Mr. Hatsumi spoke into your ear and told you what was going on? Where is your 'back up' for any of what you write?

I'm also very grateful for the likes of Toshindo students, byland who are a shining example of how to conduct themselves.

How are the Toshindo students supposed to conduct themselves? Like the other folks on what is supposed to be a thread discussing Toshindo? You must be kidding me!!!! I'll go back to something I said in another posting, since folks like to referance past postings, why do some people even read these threads???? Every thread seems to be driven by certain folks to the same end......... Toshindo is not real, Mr. Hayes makes stuff up and if you are not learning Bujinkan you are not learning the 'real' stuff!!!!

I am begining to see why TSD students are few and far between on here! Maybe the heading should be 'The haters of TSD'?

I got one more question for you guys and it has to do with what is the same between the two concepts......... what was the Bujinkan called before it was called the Bujinkan???? Guess what..... Mr. Hatsumi did not always call it the Bujinkan!!! So both To Shin Do and Bujinkan seem to have come from a 'art' and both now have names diffrent from the original art!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So maybe a few people need to take a diffrent look at the situation? I know what comes next......... I get told I aint playing nice with the other kids and I should not post on here any more or maybe I should suck up to you guys like other folks? Maybe at some point there can be a discussion on here that is productive??????? These threads are supposed to be about To Shin Do and not for or against To Shin Do right????

 

[Don Roley]

Mr. Roley, you witnessed all of this? You were physicaly there and seen these things with your own eyes. Mr. Hatsumi spoke into your ear and told you what was going on? Where is your 'back up' for any of what you write?

I first heard the account from the person who was ordered by Hatsumi to take down his name. I also heard the reasons from him. Since then, I have spoken with a few people who started training with Hatsumi before Hayes was a student but still train with Hatsumi on a weekly basis and they backed up the story.

If you want a check up for on what I say, come to Japan, talk to Hatsumi or anyone allowed by him to teach in the honbu dojo of the Bujinkan. I have 100 percent confidence in the fact that they will back up what I say. I really, really doubt you have the courage to back up your postings here with an honest search for the truth with the source of ordering Hayes name striken from those allowed to represent the Bujinkan.

Go ahead. Try to confirm or deny what I pass on by going to the source instead of flaming me from behind the comfort of your computer. I dare you. I double dog dare you. And I will point out that you failed to even try seeking out the truth if you try to dispute this in the future. Considered yourself owned from here on out.

 

[bydand]

How are the Toshindo students supposed to conduct themselves? Like the other folks on what is supposed to be a thread discussing Toshindo? You must be kidding me!!!!

How are we supposed to conduct ourselves? Not like an ***, that is for sure. And not like SKH is a demi-God who is above reproach of any kind. I love To-Shin Do, I like what it does for me, I like the instructors I've met, and I like the skill sets taught. I do not like the defensive attitude we tend to take whenever something is said against it. Come on now, we are adults here, we should act accordingly. Does it matter if SKH still has his name on the 10th Dan board in Japan? He has gone his own way, which is different than that which is in Japan, different enough he called it a different name and calls himself An-Shu which if I remember right is the founder of an art. That doesn't distract from the simple fact we chose to train in his system. Would you argue with somebody because they drive a city bus for a living and you think driving a cab is better, or worse? No, that doesn't even make sense, why argue about what art somebody chooses to practice? Nobody so far has said Bujinkan is better than To-Shin Do on this particular thread, why play that card? They have said it is different, which is true. Choices.

I'm 43 years old, I happen to see both sides of this coin, the good and the bad. I do NOT expect to be held up as an example of actions. I don't even want to be. What I wanted to see is a bit of a working relationship fostered between two arts that are very, very close; but NOT THE SAME. I guess I was wrong. For that I amm truely sorry for even bringing this thread to life, I guess the wounds are still too fresh, and there are too many standing by ready to rub salt in them instead of salve.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Attention all users

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MT Moderator-

 

[jks9199]

How are we supposed to conduct ourselves? Not like an ***, that is for sure. And not like SKH is a demi-God who is above reproach of any kind. I love To-Shin Do, I like what it does for me, I like the instructors I've met, and I like the skill sets taught. I do not like the defensive attitude we tend to take whenever something is said against it. Come on now, we are adults here, we should act accordingly. Does it matter if SKH still has his name on the 10th Dan board in Japan? He has gone his own way, which is different than that which is in Japan, different enough he called it a different name and calls himself An-Shu which if I remember right is the founder of an art. That doesn't distract from the simple fact we chose to train in his system. Would you argue with somebody because they drive a city bus for a living and you think driving a cab is better, or worse? No, that doesn't even make sense, why argue about what art somebody chooses to practice? Nobody so far has said Bujinkan is better than To-Shin Do on this particular thread, why play that card? They have said it is different, which is true. Choices.

I'm 43 years old, I happen to see both sides of this coin, the good and the bad. I do NOT expect to be held up as an example of actions. I don't even want to be. What I wanted to see is a bit of a working relationship fostered between two arts that are very, very close; but NOT THE SAME. I guess I was wrong. For that I amm truely sorry for even bringing this thread to life, I guess the wounds are still too fresh, and there are too many standing by ready to rub salt in them instead of salve.

According to Hayes's own websites, An-shu is something like "retreat leader". I was curious a few months back and chased down the answer.

Personally -- I think that since he's chosen to go a different direction with his art and his teaching, it was only appropriate that he give it a new name, and make the break. From what I've seen in various videos of Bujinkan and Toshindo practitioners, I think there's a different feel between the two programs, maybe comparable to getting the same dish at two different Chinese restaurants. Each is recognizably from the same idea -- but each chef executes it slightly differently.

On this forum, I think there are some passionate practitioners of both styles -- and their passion sometimes interferes with a discussion of the styles.

 

[lalom]

I first heard the account from the person who was ordered by Hatsumi to take down his name. I also heard the reasons from him. Since then, I have spoken with a few people who started training with Hatsumi before Hayes was a student but still train with Hatsumi on a weekly basis and they backed up the story.

If you want a check up for on what I say, come to Japan, talk to Hatsumi or anyone allowed by him to teach in the honbu dojo of the Bujinkan. I have 100 percent confidence in the fact that they will back up what I say. I really, really doubt you have the courage to back up your postings here with an honest search for the truth with the source of ordering Hayes name striken from those allowed to represent the Bujinkan.

Go ahead. Try to confirm or deny what I pass on by going to the source instead of flaming me from behind the comfort of your computer. I dare you. I double dog dare you. And I will point out that you failed to even try seeking out the truth if you try to dispute this in the future. Considered yourself owned from here on out.

Mr. Roley can you please stop?! This thread isn't about the things you are insisting be noted by To-Shin Do folks. You aren't helping here!

SKB, you aren't helping either! You can't come on here and just blantantly say things that you well know will antagonize others that have agendas. Neither you nor Mr. Roley's statements are anything but heresay. You nor Mr. Roley were there so it doesn't need to be discussed here. Let it die already.

The point of this thread is what do To-Shin Do and Bujinkan arts have in common? NOT why did SKH's name get taken down or why isn't he a part of the Bujinkan? Perhaps what the two separate arts have in common is that they both have practitioners that aren't mature enough to ignore dumb stuff! Which I guess that makes me now that I rambled this way ... heh heh Sorry everybody.

Perhaps this thread should be closed. It's going nowhere thanks to some immature who try and impose their agenda and others too immature to ignore it.

 

[stone_dragone]

message deleted by author for pointlessness

 

[Don Roley]

Neither you nor Mr. Roley's statements are anything but heresay. You nor Mr. Roley were there so it doesn't need to be discussed here.

Just a point- I can state as a fact that his name was taken down and was in a drawer for a short while. The person who took down the name said he threw it away as ordered, but someone else rescued it from the rubbish bin. It was later thrown out when a Toshindo practicioner tried to make a deal out of the fact it had not been thrown out on another message board.

So it is not hearsay when I say that I saw the perfectly intact plate with Hayes name on it and it is not on the name board. Nor is it hearsay when I say that the name is not hanging on the wall of the honbu. And if anyone really doubts anything about the matter, come to Japan and ask the guy who ordered it taken down.

This thread is about something else and we should move on.

 

[SKB]

Well I've seen enough! Have fun!!!!!

 

[Fallen Ninja]

To-Shin Do is not Bujinkan. Is it better? Well many would say yes and some would say no. The real question is... is it better for you? Why do people ramble on and on about similarities and differences.You don't see really other arts trying to do this do you? I really don't care if Don Roley has an agenda against An-Shu Hayes nor do I care if some seem to take pleasure in showing how their way is the only way (Toshindo or Bujinkan). I know that Bydand has stated a few times that he would rather train in the Bujinkan but for distance and convienence he trains in Toshindo. So he is trying to find a connection. Bydand I can see what you were trying to do but it will never work.
Those in the Bujinkan should go back to your forums far far away, and discuss why maybe women aren't that popular in the art. And those in To-Shin Do should talk about how good Mr. Norris has become and the new things that are coming out of Hombu right now.
And for those that do both... (like me) just enjoy both the differences and the similarities.

 

[ToShinDoKa]

To-Shin Do is not Bujinkan. Is it better? Well many would say yes and some would say no. The real question is... is it better for you? Why do people ramble on and on about similarities and differences.You don't see really other arts trying to do this do you? I really don't care if Don Roley has an agenda against An-Shu Hayes nor do I care if some seem to take pleasure in showing how their way is the only way (Toshindo or Bujinkan). I know that Bydand has stated a few times that he would rather train in the Bujinkan but for distance and convienence he trains in Toshindo. So he is trying to find a connection. Bydand I can see what you were trying to do but it will never work.
Those in the Bujinkan should go back to your forums far far away, and discuss why maybe women aren't that popular in the art. And those in To-Shin Do should talk about how good Mr. Norris has become and the new things that are coming out of Hombu right now.
And for those that do both... (like me) just enjoy both the differences and the similarities.

RIGHT ON!!!

 

[newtothe dark]

I was sad to see that there wasn't some higher level mature students who would/could jump in and using the started topic come up with some similarities (spelling????) yes maybe the wounds are still to fresh but they are not our wounds they are our teachers wounds not ours but I guess they transfer, oh well guess I wont get much insite on this thread.
Insert disclaimer here not ment to offend or flame anyone for any reason.

 

[Bill Sempf]

I was sad to see that there wasn't some higher level mature students who would/could jump in ...

You will find that this is a common theme. I sometimes wish we could start a forum just to homestly talk about similarities and differences and technique and teaching style without a bunch of people coming in and ruining it. Haven't seen it here yet.

Back to the OP, I have to say that to find a common thread, go back to Ju-Jitsu in its original form. You will find a basis there for a lot of the Taijutsu. BJJ and AJJ have changes the art a lot, but when read about/studied the original I thought "Ooooh, so THIS is where Aikido and Ninjutsu and Judo came from!"

Just my $0.02.

S

 

[ToShinDoKa]

According to Hayes's own websites, An-shu is something like "retreat leader". I was curious a few months back and chased down the answer.

I just wanted to comment on the meaning of Anshu...not saying that the one posted earlier was wrong (especially since that's it's intended meaning on the website, I think), but I also saw a translation defining it as: "ordained" or "hermitage head or owner".

Moving along...

One of the differences I've seen and been told by instructors in To-Shin Do, who at one time or another trained in Bujinkan, was the height of the kamae. In To-Shin Do basics, I've seen a (while uncannily stable) higher 'henka' of the classical kamae when apply Go Shin Taijutsu for self defense. Our Bobi no Kamae looks 'substantially' different, too.

I'd say some similarities I've notice in my limited training has been the uses and meanings of 'shikin haramitsu dai komyo!' Also, in respecting one's teacher, I see that a lot in both arts. How 'great' these instructors must by, these 'masters' of the warrior ways, to be able to effortlessly and most of the time unconsciously command such loyalty!

Too, I've seen an emphasis on the 'shoden' levels of the classical nine in the 'dan' ranks of both styles.

EDIT: Some of the technique names, have the same names, and look a little different. In the Earth Stability Curriculum, we use a derivative of 'Yoku-to no Kata' of Koto ryu's 'Shoden' curriculum.

In the case of many of the 'kihon', they share the same names: (i.e. musha dori, muso dori, ura gyaku, omote gyaku, and ganseki nage), and what's so interesting about these are that from what I've seen on youtube Bujinkan Demos (which are cool as hell I might add) they even LOOK exactly the same. Is this 'news' for anyone, probably not, but I thought I just outwardly state it in an attempt to contribute to a 'potentially' good topic.



-Scott