To-Shin Do/Bujinkan

[bydand]

First things first. This is NOT a thread intended to compare the arts, bash each other, or discuss which is "Better". I want to see if practitioners on both sides can find some common ground in order to mend some of the fences and bridges that have been torched and/or damaged the past few years. There have been very heated discussions in the past on every forum I have been to, most of which erupted into flame wars. Here on MT there have been discussions/disagreements about the differences. I want to see some healing here, and if there ever was an online forum and people that can accomplish this; it is Martial Talk.

I started in a Bujinkan school. Granted the Instructors were closely tied to SKH and so we would naturally have a tendancy to lean toward his teaching style anyway. When he formed the Quest Centers and went with a new name for the art taught I figured it would cause problems, never did I think it would extend this far down the timeline. I know everybody who studies any variant of Ninjutsu tends to be a bit defensive. How could we not really? "Ninja's" and their various incantations are everywhere basicly slamming the name and image of the arts we love into the ground with just stupid claims and actions. We know who they are, no need to name them or discuss them. That would be the major similarity I would think. The desire to "defend and protect" the art we have chosen. Others I can see, in no particular order I might add, are: Movement is tops, not strength; Subtlties<sp?> can make or break a technique; Pride in our art; Tendency to not discuss "what" we train in to outsiders due to misunderstanding associated with the arts; Etc... Please fill out my list with what you can see as what is common ground between these arts. Also, please do not knock someone elses position on what they find to be common, even if it does seem strange or even downright wrong to us. Who knows, for their particular school, they may do things closer in one area than other schools do.

Another thing, Could we just call it to-Shin Do? I have used the "TSD" abbreveation before, and among practioners it makes sense, but to others the question arises "What are they talking about Tang-Soo Do for?" I know I had to remind myself of that many times.

 

[Don Roley]

First things first. This is NOT a thread intended to compare the arts, bash each other, or discuss which is "Better".

I think it will probably end up that way, despite your wishes.

I will be blunt and say that what I see as a cause for a lot of the problems is that a few select Toshindo posters can't see it as a seperate art. Somehow it always seems to be that they sneak in the impression that theirs is an improved version of Bujinkan for today's reality. If you look at most of the flame wars that have gone on here, that one point has been the match that set off things most of the time.

In threads that the idea has not been raised, things are smooth. But it seems as if a few people (not here anymore for the most part) made it their duty to promote that image as often as possible.

The other problem seems to be around the fact that Hatsumi ordered that Hayes' name be taken down from the board at Honbu and has declared on numerous occasions that he is not a student of his anymore. You accept that, but there seems to be many that will try to present any theory they think will be believed to give another impression.

If you want to start the healing, then merely getting people to accept that Hayes is no longer a student of Hatsumi and stopping any comments about Toshindo in relation to Bujinkan is a god first step. If Toshindo people talked about Toshindo techniques as if they had no relation to the Bujinkan, there would be less trouble IMO. So you see why I think threads like this can actually backfire.

 

[lalom]

Well Bydand,

Due to the tone of Mr. Roley's post, I really don't think that the To-Shin Do guys here will chime in too well. Even if his post was innocent, it didn't answer the intent of your posted question. Perhaps I'm not understanding here (very probable!).

Bydand, you asked for the "common ground" between the arts. What do they have in common? Is this the question? Are you asking from the perspective of To-Shin Do practitioners or both Bujinkan and To-Shin Do?

 

[Don Roley]

Due to the tone of Mr. Roley's post, I really don't think that the To-Shin Do guys here will chime in too well.

I am always blunt and call things as I see them. And there has been a lot of problems with a few Toshindo people. We had to ban at least a few of the worst ones eventually.

I fear threads like this because it seems that we can't go very far into one without someone saying, "we have that too- but we also have additional, improved stuff you can't find in brand x-kan." I have also talked about this sort of thing in regards to Bujinkan/Genbukan discussions.

I strongly feel that if we try to treat Toshindo and Bujinkan as seperate arts that we will be much better off. If Hayes wanted to do things like the Bujinkan, he would not have created Toshindo. If you want to talk about things that are done the same in both arts, then you better be prepared for when there are small differences for one side to claim that it is an improvement and the other to say that it is a misunderstanding of what was being taught. And then the flames begin.

 

[bydand]

You have a great point Don that never crossed my mind really. As for you being blunt - fantastic I applaud that actually, because there is so much beating around the bush and people who actually mean one thing, but try to put it in the most generic terms that their meaning is mistaken. I was hoping you would chime in here actually, and was looking forward to your take on this.

lalom, I was hoping that both Bujinkan and To-Shin Do practitioners would chime in.

Yes, it has to a given that they ARE two seperate arts, but those two arts share a common link in the past and still share some items yet. I am afraid that this will turn into a pissing match and just widen the gap yet again. Please everybody try to refrain from doing that.

 

[Don Roley]

Yes, it has to a given that they ARE two seperate arts, but those two arts share a common link in the past and still share some items yet.

I understand what you are trying to do. But you have to remember that this section was just recently placed far away from the section where the Bujinkan is in for a reason. The worst trolls are gone. But there are still many more out there. Many more might join just to cause trouble if they can.

It is my opinion that instead of trying to find a common ground, in the short term we need to treat the two here as completly seperate arts. When I see someone doing FMA similar but different from Bujinkan it is of interest to me. I ask why they do it differently rather than assume it is due to a mistake. But if I see something done differently in the same art as I, then I may comment and the matter of one side being right and the other wrong comes up instead of looking at it as a matter of outlook and strategy.

I think that the best thing for this section would be to attract and encourage a large number of Toshindo practicioners that are secure enough in what they do that they do not have to compare themselves favorably with the Bujinkan or anything else. With a community that is quite able to treat what they do as something different from Bujinkan, then you have the ground work for people to discuss things objectively.

As things stand, I can imagine some of the trolls chiming in or sending in others to take their place to push their position. I don't think you want that any more than I. There needs to be time to build up Toshido in the minds of everyone as an art that does not need to compare itself to anything else for friendly comparison to go on.

 

[Kreth]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, return to the original topic.

-Kreth/Jeff Velten
-MT Senior Moderator-

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think that there are obviously a lot of similarities. (how could there not as Hayes Sensei was a student of Soke) Yet I believe that Hayes Sensei has always had some differances in the way he taught as compared with how Soke teaches. With the formation of To Shin Do, Hayes took a gigantic step in stepping out from under Hatsumi Sensei's shadow and now is a head of his own art and organization. This is probably a good thing for his growth. I have met some skilled To Shin Do people and also some uskilled as this is true for every art. I hope that Hayes Sensei has success and enjoys prosperity with his new art of To Shin Do!

I think it is hard to compare them at this point because To Shin Do is still a relatively new martial art. However if pressed some of the glaring differeances is the approach to the Godai and changing some stances and defensive posturing during a physical confrontation. Other than that they do seem very similar at times.

Truthfully To Shin Do like any art has great potential with the right people leading it and with the right spirit behind it. I for one am glad that the To Shin Do people on MartialTalk have their own forum and can now explore their art in it.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Here is a To Shin Do promotions video clip: http://www.questmartialarts.com/html/quest_video.html
Maybe some discussions points could be generated off it regarding
some differeances!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yet another To Shin Do video clip. This one features a Handgun disarm.
http://www.questdojo.co.uk/

Maybe these two clips can generate some discussion points.

 

[SKB]

Mr. Roley....... why do you even come over to the threads talking about To-Shin-Do? If the whole concept of To-Shin-Do having anything to do with what you do in Japan is to much for you, why do you insist on viewing these threads? Jumping up and down screaming To-Shin-Do is not Bujinkan is kind of old!!!!

Mr. VanCise, what are some of the things you noticed in the videos? I'd like to hear your ideas/comments!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think that Don can make valid points on To Shin Do. (primarily because the art's parent system is Budo Taijutsu) Though for anybody to have any kind of deep understanding of a system they should really train in it for a while.

As to the clips that I posted. John Poliquin's Dojo looks very nice and a well balanced professional dojo with all ranges of younger to older practitioners. Technique wise there were some very nice ones and some other ones that the practitioners probably need a little work on but what would you expect from a rank promotion video tape.

The clip from the UK school had some nice things to it. I have seen almost identical movement in many systems including Budo Taijutsu, etc with it. The verbal directions part of the person being attacked was good and learning how to use your voice and give directions is a skill that more people and systems could work on.

Those were just a few things that I saw.

 

[Don Roley]

Mr. Roley....... why do you even come over to the threads talking about To-Shin-Do?

Take a look at the title of this thread.

Go ahead......

Take a look again.......

I really do not have much interest in many of the recent threads. I post in a lot of sections here at martialtalk and read a lot of the threads. When someone asks a question I think I can answer, I tend to do so. And I give my opinion frequently. I gave mine about the potential for flaming in this thread to Bydand and he seems to have taken it under consideration and you seem to have proven my point.

Oh, and look at post #7 in this thread. I will let you follow in the spirit of that post now that I have spoken my side of the story and answered your question.

 

[bydand]

Mr. Roley....... why do you even come over to the threads talking about To-Shin-Do? If the whole concept of To-Shin-Do having anything to do with what you do in Japan is to much for you, why do you insist on viewing these threads? Jumping up and down screaming To-Shin-Do is not Bujinkan is kind of old!!!!

Mr. VanCise, what are some of the things you noticed in the videos? I'd like to hear your ideas/comments!!!!!!!!!!!!!

exactly what I didn't want. Constructive comments please. Don happens to have valid points and personally I respect his views very highly, as well as Brians'. I'm sorry I started this thread as it seems to be the people from my own art who stirs things up and are oblivious to common courtesy.

 

[bydand]

As to the clips that I posted. John Poliquin's Dojo looks very nice and a well balanced professional dojo with all ranges of younger to older practitioners. Technique wise there were some very nice ones and some other ones that the practitioners probably need a little work on but what would you expect from a rank promotion video tape.

Thanks for the clip Brian. It is kind of hard to see what color belt they have on while doing the demos, but it appeares the highest is a red which would be somewhere around 5th kyu if I remember right. Most of them look to be between white and Yellow/Black which would be around 8th or 9th kyu. Just starting the journey.

John is a great guy who was with the Bujinkan for years before following SKH and To-Shin Do path. He is just scary good in reality.

 

[lalom]

I am always blunt and call things as I see them. And there has been a lot of problems with a few Toshindo people. We had to ban at least a few of the worst ones eventually.

I fear threads like this because it seems that we can't go very far into one without someone saying, "we have that too- but we also have additional, improved stuff you can't find in brand x-kan." I have also talked about this sort of thing in regards to Bujinkan/Genbukan discussions.

I strongly feel that if we try to treat Toshindo and Bujinkan as seperate arts that we will be much better off. If Hayes wanted to do things like the Bujinkan, he would not have created Toshindo. If you want to talk about things that are done the same in both arts, then you better be prepared for when there are small differences for one side to claim that it is an improvement and the other to say that it is a misunderstanding of what was being taught. And then the flames begin.

I completely understand what you are saying Don, but there is also another forum entitled "Differences between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan" for the differences (of which there are) to be discussed. I, for one, would like to try and find the things we have in common instead of always looking for things that divide us.

 

[SKB]

........ The verbal directions part of the person being attacked was good and learning how to use your voice and give directions is a skill that more people and systems could work on.

I have to agree with you on the verbal commands! They really make a diffrence in a real situation. Other arts I have studied did nothing along this line. The only verbal aspect was yelling a 'KI'. Giving commands works well on a legal level also. If the witnesses hear and see you giving orders then the 'bad guy' jumps up and comes out you, you are in a better position then if you just stood there pointing a gun at him.

 

[MrFunnieman]

lalom,

I would submit that there are terms that are shared by both lineages.
Like: Omote gyaku, Ura gyaku, Ganseki nage, etc. However the execution of this principles/ techniques varies according to the lineage. The kiai in To-shin Do are "Stop", "No", etc. I don't have experience with Booj kiai. I have trained with some booj guys, but it was a basement type scenario, not a formal dojo. Those are a couple obvious similarities as I see it that "most" people "should" be able to agree on.

I completely understand what you are saying Don, but there is also another forum entitled "Differences between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan" for the differences (of which there are) to be discussed. I, for one, would like to try and find the things we have in common instead of always looking for things that divide us.

 

[maccuda]

Honestly, they are not so far apart
I have studied both and cannot understand all the anger towards eachother.
Everyone their own system, where ever they feel happy.
I agree with lalom that we should look at the things we have incommon.
we are bound by history in any effect.

 

[saru1968]

How much time have you spent training in either art?