TMA and fighting.

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Martial D, Apr 17, 2018.

  1. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I like this video better lol. The still got the wrist technique wrong. It's Circle up Vs Turn Up. I could easily write a 5 page book or talk for an hour just on that concept alone. Turning the arm up will get you punched in the face. A Inside Vs Outside. makes a difference as well.

    What would be more helpful would be to show why the technique is failing and then to show the corrections, then show different options
     
  2. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I agree. way too risky. What if the foot isn't within stomping range. Now what? Normally if one technique isn't available, then another one is used instead, but the "foot stomp" technique is always taught as if the foot will be there, and that stomp will guarantee a release.

    My entire understanding of grappling on which I build all of my applications from is this. When someone grabs you, address the grab. This often means counter the grab or grab the person. It doesn't mean strike the person. From my experience strikes rarely counter a person's grips. Keep in mind. That a strike is good if the grip isn't set, but if you know that there is a high chance that the grip will be set then address the grab and then strike.


    This follows in line with how I train against grabs. Address the grab, then the strike. Step 1, then Step 2.



    This would be a more practice use of stomping feet
     
  3. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    The flip works. You just have to be a slick wrestler to do it. The thing is just because something works doesn't mean you can make it part of your system and get a high percentage of students to be ever able to perform it.

    Which is my issue with judo throws and military systems. Nobody is going to get that move high percentage in 8 weeks or so. It takes years of dedicated grounding.

    And if they did. You would see it come out when the same guys wrestle. And you really don't. So going back to dropping the pen. That is a perfect example because they train then wrestle at the end of the course.

    You could list the moves most likely to be successful at the end of that course.Because you would see it.

    Then you would know which moves to train.
     
  4. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    For me it is structure first then escape. Backward headbuts are a gift in that someone has to be pretty stupid to fall into a position where it works.

    There are structural defences that will work and then only relys on you being better at escaping than them being better at suplexing you.
     
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  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Im on my phone so can’t watch the videos right now. There are times when affecting the head or the stance is appropriate for countering a grip, and strikes can be used for that. For me, the key consideration is the “failure mode” of the counter - what happens if you miss or fail. Only in some specific situations would I consider the failure mode of that foot stomp reasonable.
     
  6. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    How to Escape If Grabbed From Behind

    You can

    - expand your arms side way. This can loose the grip hold.
    - drop down into a low and wide horse stance. This will make your opponent hard to hold on you.
    - You can then ...
     
  7. pdg

    pdg Master Black Belt

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    Are we still talking about women's self defence against a man doing a bear hug from behind?

    If so, then the success of either of those moves depends entirely on body structure differences. Generally, I'd consider them very low on the reliability scale...

    A woman who "do you even lift sis?" with good to excellent upper body strength might make the "expand arms" move work - but even then if the attacker got a full wrap and grabbed his own arm, very little chance.

    A heavy woman might make "horse stance" work, if she's heavy enough to overcome the grip using gravity or overbalance the attacker. Overbalancing doesn't work by itself if the intention of the grab was to pick you up though.

    I've played the attacker in these exact drills and - with one exception - they ended with me simply walking away with a woman in my arms. The exception? A woman I can't physically lift dropped down...


    My preferred response - tense during the grab to counteract the compression of your ribs then wait to be released. Basically, don't try to fight from that position.

    Psychologically, not resisting too much at that point increases the element of surprise at the next stage.

    You'll have to be let go at some point, it's not much of an attack if it's just a bear hug grab. Anything it may possibly lead into necessitates the attacker moving their arms, which means releasing their hold.

    Counter attack now.


    Actually, an exception - if the point was to pick you up and drop you off a cliff, by all means fight from the grab. It's still highly unlikely to work, but it's worth a shot.
     
  8. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Senior Master

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    It would fall straight down because of gravity. Where's the problem?
     
  9. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    I respectfully disagree. You can still throw a "proper" haymaker without trying to take the guy's head off. Basically all they demonstrated was a "slap" to the face. That's just a pet peeve of mine when I see people criticize something on why it wouldn't work, but they aren't really showing the same technique. As an FYI, it bothers me just as much when I see someone demonstrating punch counters to a punch that stops a foot from the defender's face or is thrown to the side and wouldn't make contact anyways.

    But, we are on the same page that the first video was also bad and not done properly by the female showing the techniques.
     
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  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    The other (far more likely exception, especially for a man) is being picked up and slammed. You can't wait that one out, and it's time to scramble to try to interrupt the attack. I don't know of any truly high-percentage responses that cross the different positions, strength and weight differences, and such possible in this scenario, so it truly is a bit of a scramble.

    The expansion of the arms is really only likely to work with matched strength (or better) or if you expand before they connect hands.
     
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  11. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Sometimes I feel like I am playing chess and everyone else is playing checkers.
     
  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    It doesn't happen much, so don't get used to it, DB, but I'm following you (and agreeing) on this one.
     
  13. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I don't doubt that the flip works. My comment was in context that I know when it doesn't work and how to counter it. I also keep in mind the this flip is done in the context of Wrestling. View this same move in the context of Muay Thai and we find that we don't see it.
     
  14. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Structure first is the same as dealing with the grab first. For me the headbutt would be striking and would be against my rule for dealing with someone grabbing. The time wasted on a missed or weak head butt could have been spent on addressing the grab. In the video he locks his leg around the leg of his attacker and that would be an example of addressing the grab. For me addressing the grab is done by grabbing the attacker in some manner or preventing the attacker from having a successful grab by using an escape that forces the attacker to reset.
     
  15. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    If a strike misses or lands weak, then valuable time has been wasted. During that miss, the opponent would have still been working to secure the grab while you reset for another strike. We often see this playout in MMA.
     
  16. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    I'm talking about SD in general. I don't believe in "women SD". What technique can a 5 years old be able to use on a 20 years old? Nothing. If a woman can break my bear hug from behind, I'll get a rope, find a quite place, and hang myself.

    - You block a punch before that punch can reach on your face. When that punch land on your face, it's too late.
    - You expand your arms when your opponent "tries" to bear hug you from behind. You don't wait until that bear hug is locked completely.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
  17. pdg

    pdg Master Black Belt

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    The first part - "women's self defence" should usually be a separate thing, the attacks are usually different and the possible counters are also different due to body type. There is no one size fits all in my opinion.

    As to the second part - yes, that would be ideal and I agree in principle.

    But, you probably have a chance to see a punch coming. I would challenge your reaction time to be able to effectively counter an unexpected grab from behind before the grab is complete.
     
  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    A strike doesn't have to land to affect structure. If I can make him move his head, this can limit the effectiveness of some gripping attacks. The high-percentage attacks used in MMA are often used because they are harder to disrupt.
     
  19. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    MA has a lot of paradox. For example,

    1. If you let your opponent to have a bear hug from behind, you are not good in MA.
    2. If you can't get a bear hug on your opponent from behind without being detected, you are not good in MA.

    1. After you get a bear hug on your opponent, if your opponent can break away from your bear hug, you are not good in MA.
    2. If your opponent gets a bear hug on you, if you can't break away that bear hug, you are not good in MA.

    Which one is true? 1 or 2? In MA, everything is relative and not absolute.
     
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  20. pdg

    pdg Master Black Belt

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    That I can agree with ;)
     

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