TKD is Weak on the street as a self defense?

[Paul_D]

Doing somersaults and backflips is gymnastics. XMA is no more a Martial Art than painting go faster stripes on my car is a way to make it accelerate more quickly. It might make it look like it will do, job, but the reality is a different story.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Seal team 6 uses boxing coaches.

Who Teaches SEAL Team 6 How to Fight? | TIME.com

Boxing used in world war 1.

I guess I wasn’t clear. I don’t was referring to the roots, not recent usage. I’d be surprised if there wasn’t a military group using boxing now. Arguably, the WWI usage qualifies, but boxing has much older roots than that. I think I heard recently that it started as self-defense training. I am no boxing historian so I don’t know how accurate that is.

 

[DaveB]

Everybody's someone elses ninja.

You say XMA. I say Krav Maga.

What don't youlike about Krav Maga?

 

[drop bear]

I guess I wasn’t clear. I don’t was referring to the roots, not recent usage. I’d be surprised if there wasn’t a military group using boxing now. Arguably, the WWI usage qualifies, but boxing has much older roots than that. I think I heard recently that it started as self-defense training. I am no boxing historian so I don’t know how accurate that is.

I think back in the day sport was self defence. You went to war and you bashed dudes for status.

 

[drop bear]

What don't youlike about Krav Maga?

When it trains contrived rubbish against compliant partners.

Internet instructorships dont help either.

 

[DaveB]

When it trains contrived rubbish against compliant partners.

Internet instructorships dont help either.

When you say compliant, do you really mean that they demo material that only works on the unskilled? Or do you think krav is routinely trained in a manner where techniques are applied because the teacher directs students not to resist?

 

[drop bear]

When you say compliant, do you really mean that they demo material that only works on the unskilled? Or do you think krav is routinely trained in a manner where techniques are applied because the teacher directs students not to resist?

Krav is trained in that manner.

 

[DaveB]

Krav is trained in that manner.

None that I have seen.

But then I heard that it's popularity sparked a lot of rapid growth with mixed quality teaching.

 

[drop bear]

None that I have seen.

But then I heard that it's popularity sparked a lot of rapid growth with mixed quality teaching.

I am sure the krav you have seen is different.

 

[DaveB]

I am sure the krav you have seen is different.

Why do you think it is that students would avoid applying resistance to their training of their own accord?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why do you think it is that students would avoid applying resistance to their training of their own accord?

Most students simply follow the training methods provided in a program.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Why do you think it is that students would avoid applying resistance to their training of their own accord?

For many, it's an unconscious or unintentional result of wanting their training partner to succeed.
If you're working on a release from a wrist grab, for example, and the "attacker" doesn't hold tightly, the release is much easier. Of course, then you don't know if the release worked because you did it right or because they turned loose.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For many, it's an unconscious or unintentional result of wanting their training partner to succeed.
If you're working on a release from a wrist grab, for example, and the "attacker" doesn't hold tightly, the release is much easier. Of course, then you don't know if the release worked because you did it right or because they turned loose.

I think there's also a side-effect of some drills. The wrist releases, for instance - when they are taught to a new student, their wrists typically are easily chafed. We want them to get in enough repetitions in that one class, so the partner may start to lighten their grip in an effort to save the wrists (especially if their own wrists are starting to get sore). In some drills, the harder you resist, the harder it is for your partner to be gentle (say, a hip throw drill or a single-leg drill), so you provide light resistance or none at all, so you get a softer fall after a few repetitions. And when a student (especially a newer one) is learning a new technique, that early learning is done with little or no resistance (whichever is more appropriate to what is being learned).

Over time, these become habit. In and of themselves, these examples aren't awful, so long as there's sufficient resisted training, too. But often those habits lessen the resistance given during the resisted training exercises, too.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think there's also a side-effect of some drills. The wrist releases, for instance - when they are taught to a new student, their wrists typically are easily chafed. We want them to get in enough repetitions in that one class, so the partner may start to lighten their grip in an effort to save the wrists (especially if their own wrists are starting to get sore). In some drills, the harder you resist, the harder it is for your partner to be gentle (say, a hip throw drill or a single-leg drill), so you provide light resistance or none at all, so you get a softer fall after a few repetitions. And when a student (especially a newer one) is learning a new technique, that early learning is done with little or no resistance (whichever is more appropriate to what is being learned).

Over time, these become habit. In and of themselves, these examples aren't awful, so long as there's sufficient resisted training, too. But often those habits lessen the resistance given during the resisted training exercises, too.

I agree. When you're first learning a technique, you're doing it slowly, and a non-compliant partner can (and often will, unconsciously) do things to make the technique ineffective. Things which they could not do if the technique were being done at speed.
So a compliant partner can be a good thing at certain stages of training, but a bad thing at others. This isn't always an easy concept for students to grasp.

 

[drop bear]

I think there's also a side-effect of some drills. The wrist releases, for instance - when they are taught to a new student, their wrists typically are easily chafed. We want them to get in enough repetitions in that one class, so the partner may start to lighten their grip in an effort to save the wrists (especially if their own wrists are starting to get sore). In some drills, the harder you resist, the harder it is for your partner to be gentle (say, a hip throw drill or a single-leg drill), so you provide light resistance or none at all, so you get a softer fall after a few repetitions. And when a student (especially a newer one) is learning a new technique, that early learning is done with little or no resistance (whichever is more appropriate to what is being learned).

Over time, these become habit. In and of themselves, these examples aren't awful, so long as there's sufficient resisted training, too. But often those habits lessen the resistance given during the resisted training exercises, too.

Defence against back grabs are generally pretty telling. Because if they are really latched on you are going to have a hell of a time getting them off and the defences seem futile. So they start to do work arounds.

Here is some compliant drilling.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Defence against back grabs are generally pretty telling. Because if they are really latched on you are going to have a hell of a time getting them off and the defences seem futile. So they start to do work arounds.

Here is some compliant drilling.

Something I try to communicate to students is that some attacks you don't reasonably escape while they are happening (like a rear naked choke that is fully sunk in). You have to defend before they start or frustrate what they hoped to do. A RNC, you have to disrupt it before it gets sunk in, unless you are really good. With a rear bearhug like they were showing, you either disrupt the grip before it clamps down (same principle as the RNC), or you frustrate their attempt to lift (one of the more likely next steps, and probably the most dangerous) or whatever they are trying to do once they grab and look for an opening to change the math. Moving your butt to the side won't work if they are attached, because they'll have your weight. It might if you do it before they close the grip.

 

[drop bear]

Why do you think it is that students would avoid applying resistance to their training of their own accord?

Ultimatley because everybody wants their training to work. And it is frustrating to consistantly fail with a technique.

 

[drop bear]

Something I try to communicate to students is that some attacks you don't reasonably escape while they are happening (like a rear naked choke that is fully sunk in). You have to defend before they start or frustrate what they hoped to do. A RNC, you have to disrupt it before it gets sunk in, unless you are really good. With a rear bearhug like they were showing, you either disrupt the grip before it clamps down (same principle as the RNC), or you frustrate their attempt to lift (one of the more likely next steps, and probably the most dangerous) or whatever they are trying to do once they grab and look for an opening to change the math. Moving your butt to the side won't work if they are attached, because they'll have your weight. It might if you do it before they close the grip.

Well yeah. But a lot of things wont work if that grab is latched on. Even the defences that do work, dont work very well.

But we have to come up with a way it works or otherwise people think their martial arts doesnt work.

Knife vs unarmed, multiple attackers, just a guy who can really punch. All these scenarios people feel they have to get an instant result to.

 

[DaveB]

Defence against back grabs are generally pretty telling. Because if they are really latched on you are going to have a hell of a time getting them off and the defences seem futile. So they start to do work arounds.

Here is some compliant drilling.

I get the impression that you train beginners by throwing them into an octagon to face a world champion in bare knuckle death match.

Where you saw compliant drills, I saw a bunch of first timers being given a taster session.

I've done a bit of kravesque training and once basic technique was established we turned up the resistance to as close to full as we could get. Maybe I'm unique, and sure, raw noobs might not be confident to do that, but I have always taken increased pressure in drills as the norm.

It seriously beggars belief that anyone who trains regularly would sit with beginner level compliance and resistance.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It seriously beggars belief that anyone who trains regularly would sit with beginner level compliance and resistance.

I don't have any personal experience with Krav Maga, but I've encountered schools for other arts where training never progresses past beginner level compliance and resistance.