TKD and real self defense

[ralphmcpherson]

Even if you can do it in jeans (not that hard really) it's still not the best idea.

That aside, if you expect to defend yourself with kicks, wearing restrictive clothing isn't the best idea regardless.

exactly right , and I think thats the general consensus. Most people on here have said from the start that high kicks are not preferable in most situations and I have to agree , but there are going to be times where a head kick can work , especially if the person throwing the head kick is over 6 foot and they are being attacked by someone a lot shorter it really could be viable at times. I just hate the broad generalisation that " a head kick will never work".

 

[goingd]

anyone throws an AXE kick on the street, on something that isnt half beat to death already, then they deserve the beating they are most likely gonna get

Yyyyeah, everyone for that matter, who disagrees with you, deserves to be physically harmed...

 

[goingd]

I see no reason why head kicks could not be used effectively in a fight. They are used all the time in MMA. Side note: How the heck do I put line breaks in my post?

That amused me so very much... I might actually like MMA if all the fighters were like that.

Kicking high and quickly in jeans, even rather snug jeans, is really not that hard. Whenever I freespar (and I mean freespar, not competition) I find myself using my hands the most, but my legs are longer and stronger, and I would never count them out. ^~^

 

[Revenant777]

http://www.mopo.ca/uploaded_images/actionjeans400.jpg-744449.jpeg

This discussion is now officially over.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

http://www.mopo.ca/uploaded_images/actionjeans400.jpg-744449.jpeg

This discussion is now officially over.

Yes, but he's Chuck Norris, the exception to all laws of physics and body mechanics that limit the rest of us mere mortals!

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

I see no reason why head kicks could not be used effectively in a fight. They are used all the time in MMA. Side note: How the heck do I put line breaks in my post?

Not to split hairs, but I don't mean a professional bout. How about some "caught on camera" stuff?

 

[Twin Fist]

Yyyyeah, everyone for that matter, who disagrees with you, deserves to be physically harmed...

now thats a stupid thing to say, and comes nowhere NEAR what i said.

I didnt say you deserve to get hurt FOR disagreeing with me.

if you do something THAT dumb in a FIGHT, then you deserve the hurting you are gonna get.

it's like going swimming in the ocean with t-bone underwear on.

you are most likely GONNA get bit, and you cant cry about it cuz you brought it on yourself.

in a FIGHT, you keep your feet ont he ground, or CLOSE to the ground.

Anyone that kicks higher than the nuts in a FIGHT is most likely gonna regret it.

I dont care what elite trained professional fighters can get away with, since no one here is an elite, trained fighter.

all you TKD people are just brainwashed thinking that what you can do in sparring in a nice loose uniform you can just as easily do in street clothes and shoes on cement.

TRY IT

then get back to me and let me know how funny it was when it didnt work and you fell on your butt.

 

[Dirty Dog]

now thats a stupid thing to say, and comes
all you TKD people are just brainwashed thinking that what you can do in sparring in a nice loose uniform you can just as easily do in street clothes and shoes on cement.

TRY IT

then get back to me and let me know how funny it was when it didnt work and you fell on your butt.

At the age of 17 (que Star Wars "A Long Time Ago, in a Galaxy Far Far Away) I was mugged by a man with a knife. I did all the things you're supposed to do, including giving him my wallet and the rich sum of $6 it contained. The unfriendly man with the knife was convinced that I must have more money on me, and was willing to kill me to get it.
He slashed, sideways, at my throat. I performed a rising block. In hindsight not the best choice, since I didn't get back quite far enough, and as the knife rose it caught my left eye. That's why I wear a prosthetic today. I threw a roundhouse to his solar plexus, then a hook kick to his head. He landed on his hands and knees. I threw an axe kick to the back of his neck, which ended things. I then ran.

While the axe kick landed low enough to make you happy, the first two kicks were both 'above the nuts'. I did not fall on my butt. I did not have any difficulty caused by my clothing. I am not a professional fighter. There were two problems with the encounter, and neither of them had anything to do with the kicks.
1 - I screwed up the block on his knife hand.
2 - I had to hurt him even worse than he hurt me. Necessary, yes, but still regretable.

The other thing I learned from this is that we, as a culture, ought to reconsider training ourselves to be victims. The last few generations have been taught 'don't fight back, give the badguy what he wants and he will go away'. I believe this to be a mistake. Give the badguy what he wants just long enough to distract him. I ought to have dropped my wallet when I handed it to him, and when his eyes reflexively followed, attacked.
Teaching our children to be victims in this way is, I believe, why 9/11 was our own fault. Terrorists cannot highjack a plane with a box cutter if 15 people jump on each of them.

Every attack we train with is useful. Not all are useful in every situation. But none are useless either.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The other thing I learned from this is that we, as a culture, ought to reconsider training ourselves to be victims. The last few generations have been taught 'don't fight back, give the badguy what he wants and he will go away'. I believe this to be a mistake. Give the badguy what he wants just long enough to distract him. I ought to have dropped my wallet when I handed it to him, and when his eyes reflexively followed, attacked.
Teaching our children to be victims in this way is, I believe, why 9/11 was our own fault. Terrorists cannot highjack a plane with a box cutter if 15 people jump on each of them.

Definitely, we have spent the past few decades training ourselves to be victims of crime. I have said as well that there was no reason that a couple of guys with boxcutters should have been able to hijack those planes with more than enough people on board to overpower them.

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

solar plexus isnt head high, and after a shot to the solar plexus, his HEAD wasnt head high i would wager.

so, while your story is awesome, and a very good read, it doesnt really have anything to do with the thread at hand.

but, lets dissect


you already admitted you moofed the block

now, the front kick to the SP is a good reaction, was your next shot a lead leg, rear leg, or spinning hook?

why the hook?

wouldnt a side kick to the body, or KNEE have been FASTER, SAFER and landed with even MORE power?

an axe kick to the back of someone's head, when they are on thier hands and knees is fine, but not i think the smartest or most effective idea, but it is at least not dangerous to the one throwing it.

 

[goingd]

now thats a stupid thing to say, and comes nowhere NEAR what i said.

I didnt say you deserve to get hurt FOR disagreeing with me.

if you do something THAT dumb in a FIGHT, then you deserve the hurting you are gonna get.

it's like going swimming in the ocean with t-bone underwear on.

you are most likely GONNA get bit, and you cant cry about it cuz you brought it on yourself.

in a FIGHT, you keep your feet ont he ground, or CLOSE to the ground.

Anyone that kicks higher than the nuts in a FIGHT is most likely gonna regret it.

I dont care what elite trained professional fighters can get away with, since no one here is an elite, trained fighter.

all you TKD people are just brainwashed thinking that what you can do in sparring in a nice loose uniform you can just as easily do in street clothes and shoes on cement.

TRY IT

then get back to me and let me know how funny it was when it didnt work and you fell on your butt.

I consistently train in street cloths, on cement, with my shoes. It does not take that much getting used to. Oh, and to get back to you, it was absolutely hilarious all those times I never fell on my butt! I'm pretending to laugh about it now just thinking about it!
How is no one here an elite trained fighter? Many of the people on this forum are masters of their art. I am sorry, but unless there is some kind of condition keeping you back, a master ought to be consider an "elite trained fighter". And the reason these "elites" can do the kicks they do is because they do it consistently. They did not just one day decide, "I'm going to start doing high axe kicks," and then master it. Legs are long. Legs are strong. In a box with a fox for that matter.
You offer no debate because you ignore what people have to genuinely say that opposes your way of thinking. You might as well be shouting the pledge of allegiance to drown out a speaker at a town hall meeting. I mean no disrespect, and I'm certain you could pretend to care less what I think, but being pompous is not the same thing as being direct and bold.

 

[Twin Fist]

well good for you!!! tell you what Sparky, if YOU can, then EVERYONE can, how silly of me...

once again, real slow for our special needs folks

just becuase you CAN doesnt make it a good idea

the higher the stakes, the more it is a bad idea to push the limits of luck

life and death? sure, you go ahead, i will play it safe and smart, and keep my feet close to the ground.

Oh, and for your personal opinion of me?

i literally could not care less.

 

[StuartA]

Twin Fist,

I once had occassion to use a flying side kick on the street in SD of another.. i was about 20 feet away when he attacked the lady so I had a run up.. worked a charm! I also know of an occassion when a BB KO' someone (on the street) with a Jump Reverse Turning Kick.. though he was very good at it!

I mostly agree with 'rules' usually quoted with SD/SD .. though there are exceptions to every rule.. Im proof of it!

Stuart

 

[artFling]

Just in case you are wondering, Twin Fist, though portly and middle aged, can deliver any number of devastating kicks head high. He opened up my nose with one as easily as taking a bite out of a baloney sandwich, which he also can do quite well.

And here's the thing, TF has basically two volume settings on his keyboard, sarcastic and enraged. It's therapy.

But don't miss his message: for the masses training for SD, he's saying (and you have to read between the lines to get this) don't TRAIN to rely on fancy head shots and spinning kicks. If you need it and that's what you got, you can use it, but don't plan to. Expect to use a lot of other stuff. Use the more pedestrian stuff; it's way more reliable.

Lots of people will let you know that the fancy stuff's not a great idea. Read Loren Christensen on this.

Still sport a nice scar across the bridge of my nose from that RH kick. Really gotta come up with a better story about how I got it.

I like to tell my students at middle school that I got in a fight. They like that cuz I'm also a portly middle aged guy who's bitten into a sandwich or two too. (Don't look like a MAist)

 

[Twin Fist]

you CAN drive a car with your feet

that dont make it a good idea

Twin Fist,

I once had occassion to use a flying side kick on the street in SD of another.. i was about 20 feet away when he attacked the lady so I had a run up.. worked a charm! I also know of an occassion when a BB KO' someone (on the street) with a Jump Reverse Turning Kick.. though he was very good at it!

I mostly agree with 'rules' usually quoted with SD/SD .. though there are exceptions to every rule.. Im proof of it!

Stuart

 

[Dirty Dog]

solar plexus isnt head high, and after a shot to the solar plexus, his HEAD wasnt head high i would wager.

so, while your story is awesome, and a very good read, it doesnt really have anything to do with the thread at hand.

but, lets dissect


you already admitted you moofed the block

now, the front kick to the SP is a good reaction, was your next shot a lead leg, rear leg, or spinning hook?

why the hook?

wouldnt a side kick to the body, or KNEE have been FASTER, SAFER and landed with even MORE power?

an axe kick to the back of someone's head, when they are on thier hands and knees is fine, but not i think the smartest or most effective idea, but it is at least not dangerous to the one throwing it.

So I guess you're retracting this statement:
"Anyone that kicks higher than the nuts in a FIGHT is most likely gonna regret it." or at least explaining why the nuts, in your scenario, are head high. I'm more than average familar with both normal and abnormal human anatomy, and I've never seen a case like that...

Both the front kick and hook were with the right leg. It started out as the back leg and touched the ground again after the hook. His arms came down after the kick to the SP, so his head was open. And a side kick to the body would still have violated your "above the nuts rule", but since you're retracting that, I guess that doesn't matter.
While his head was lower than it would have been in an upright stance, neither was he bent double. The hook kick was roughly at the level of my shoulders. Still well above both his and my nuts.

As for the axe kick, I believe I said NECK, not head. How is turning him into a C5-6 quadraplegic not effective?

As for "moofing" the block, yes, I did. I needed to either get the knife higher, or my head further back. Nobody is perfect, and I certainly don't claim to be.

 

[Twin Fist]

i am not retracting nothing.

look at what i said.

"Anyone that kicks higher than the nuts in a FIGHT is most likely gonna regret it."

now let me do some magic here

"Anyone that kicks higher than the nuts in a FIGHT is most likely gonna regret it."

you beat the odds

congrats

dont change anything tho.

solar plexus is pushing it. i would never kick higher than that on the street, no matter what, and an aex kick? forget that crap.......

you got away with something that wasnt a good idea. Dont count on it happening twice.

I never said it COULDNT be done, i said it was a low percentage shot. and it is.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I consistently train in street cloths, on cement, with my shoes. It does not take that much getting used to. Oh, and to get back to you, it was absolutely hilarious all those times I never fell on my butt! I'm pretending to laugh about it now just thinking about it!
How is no one here an elite trained fighter? Many of the people on this forum are masters of their art. I am sorry, but unless there is some kind of condition keeping you back, a master ought to be consider an "elite trained fighter". And the reason these "elites" can do the kicks they do is because they do it consistently. They did not just one day decide, "I'm going to start doing high axe kicks," and then master it. Legs are long. Legs are strong. In a box with a fox for that matter.
You offer no debate because you ignore what people have to genuinely say that opposes your way of thinking. You might as well be shouting the pledge of allegiance to drown out a speaker at a town hall meeting. I mean no disrespect, and I'm certain you could pretend to care less what I think, but being pompous is not the same thing as being direct and bold.

some really good points there. A lot of the people saying high kicks can be effective when the time is right are black belts in tkd , they are not just some drunk kid at a party wearing tight jeans who watched a martial arts film yesterday and decides to start throwing head kicks when he gets into a fight. These people have trained for years and years and have practiced head kicks literally millions of times and I think twin fist is forgetting this. Kicks from an experienced tkd practitioner are a lot stronger than a punch and can be done at a greater distance and at times are a very viable option (even at head height).

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Personally, I consder the solar plexus to be a good choice provided you have the guy's hands distracted. Anything higher than that I consider to be territory of the hands. As others have said, if you have the shot and the ability to pull it off, then by all means do.

The major thing to be on guard against with higher than waist kicks is grabs.

Daniel

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I suppose a lot of it comes down to who you are defending yourself against also (which unfortunately you dont know at the time). Against a trained opponent there is the real possibility of a grab if you go for a head kick and its not super quick and when the time is perfect to do so. Obviously against an untrained opponent that risk diminishes somewhat. I know when we spar aginst much lower belts (where we go very easy) it is surprisingly easy to kick them in the head , they just dont see it coming at all.