Thanks Stuart I am not saying I endorse KKW but they have SD, none that I would ever use but they have it. I agree errant108 would be a great addition to what movements are being done.
TKD and Everyone Else
- Thread starter ellies
- Start date
I know you utilse what the KKW offers as it benefits some of what you want... I also know you arnt tied by them.
Stuart
KKW is a body for issuing certifications based upon a basic cirriculum. Nothing more. The WTF is a TKD sanctioning body for sport TKD. Nothing more. Clubs and schools can benefit from being part of an organization; benefits such as insurrance and the fact that many customers will simply not sign up, no matter how good the cirriculum and instructors are, if the school is not affiliated with a larger organization.
It may sound stupid, but the bulk of the American public will consider a school to be unworthy of their consideration without some sort of affiliation. People are far too association conscious when it comes to martial arts.
But in all fairness, it is a part of the rest of our culture. We won't bank with anyone not FDIC. A court nominee is frowned upon without endorsement from the American bar association. And candidates for political office, no matter how qualified, get no traction without being part of one of the two major parties.
So why are we so shocked that the very association conscious public that we seek to bring into our schools demand certification by some larger organization? And who can blame them? Nobody wants to be a sucker and the public mentality is that without the backing of a large organization, they have no guarantee that your school is legit.
The fact that we see it in reverse is not the customer's problem; it is our own. And we made it. McDojang owners using the very organization they seek assurance from to fleece and defraud the public and an organization too large and too lax to properly police itself combine to create the host of problems facing taekwondo today.
Some of us, like Terry, have chosen to stay under the umbrella of organizations like the Kukkiwon, providing the quality instruction that people hope a KKW certification implies. Others succumb to what they feel they need to do to stay in business, providing watered down instruction and belts. Others refuse to do either and go independent. Still others leave taekwondo entirely.
Those who choose Terry's path have, in my opinion, the hardest time. Customers will be unaccustomed to the more rigorous training, some life martial artists will refuse to take them seriously just because of KKW affiliation, and for every one Terry, there are ten dojangs with KKW affiliation that offer an easy, two year black belt with watered down ciriculum that has virtually no self defense value, but who's students actually think they can fight. These easy school have slick marketing slogans that resonate with the American public. Does 'we are a blackbelt school' ring any bells? Serious martial artists who refuse to look beneath the surface of a KKW cert simply lump a Terry school in with all of the rest.
The small independent school can trade on another theme that resonates with the American public: small=good service and quality instruction. Does, 'we are not a big box store' ring any bells? Serious martial artists will also be more likely to look at the small school and lend their credibility.
So, where does all of this go? Its up to us really. The future of any martial art is in the hands of its practitioners who one day become its caretakers. This thread starts off asking about taekwondo and its perception amongst practitioners of other arts. But that is the wrong place to start, no offense to the OP. The place to start is within taekwondo, not without.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Daniel
It may sound stupid, but the bulk of the American public will consider a school to be unworthy of their consideration without some sort of affiliation. People are far too association conscious when it comes to martial arts.
But in all fairness, it is a part of the rest of our culture. We won't bank with anyone not FDIC. A court nominee is frowned upon without endorsement from the American bar association. And candidates for political office, no matter how qualified, get no traction without being part of one of the two major parties.
So why are we so shocked that the very association conscious public that we seek to bring into our schools demand certification by some larger organization? And who can blame them? Nobody wants to be a sucker and the public mentality is that without the backing of a large organization, they have no guarantee that your school is legit.
The fact that we see it in reverse is not the customer's problem; it is our own. And we made it. McDojang owners using the very organization they seek assurance from to fleece and defraud the public and an organization too large and too lax to properly police itself combine to create the host of problems facing taekwondo today.
Some of us, like Terry, have chosen to stay under the umbrella of organizations like the Kukkiwon, providing the quality instruction that people hope a KKW certification implies. Others succumb to what they feel they need to do to stay in business, providing watered down instruction and belts. Others refuse to do either and go independent. Still others leave taekwondo entirely.
Those who choose Terry's path have, in my opinion, the hardest time. Customers will be unaccustomed to the more rigorous training, some life martial artists will refuse to take them seriously just because of KKW affiliation, and for every one Terry, there are ten dojangs with KKW affiliation that offer an easy, two year black belt with watered down ciriculum that has virtually no self defense value, but who's students actually think they can fight. These easy school have slick marketing slogans that resonate with the American public. Does 'we are a blackbelt school' ring any bells? Serious martial artists who refuse to look beneath the surface of a KKW cert simply lump a Terry school in with all of the rest.
The small independent school can trade on another theme that resonates with the American public: small=good service and quality instruction. Does, 'we are not a big box store' ring any bells? Serious martial artists will also be more likely to look at the small school and lend their credibility.
So, where does all of this go? Its up to us really. The future of any martial art is in the hands of its practitioners who one day become its caretakers. This thread starts off asking about taekwondo and its perception amongst practitioners of other arts. But that is the wrong place to start, no offense to the OP. The place to start is within taekwondo, not without.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Daniel
Guys, I'm tired. This is about the billionth time I've had this conversation. If someone actually wants to have a rational, logical discussion on this subject, let me know. I really don't care enough anymore to waste my time slogging through fallacies & ad hominum.
Stuart, you're an asset to the art, and I've always enjoyed our conversations.
Stuart, you're an asset to the art, and I've always enjoyed our conversations.
newGuy12
Master of Arts
Yes, one Dojang full of students at a time. This is the kind of "can do" attitude that makes a difference. No one person can change the world, but change can be brought to the immediate sphere of influence.
Hear, hear!
Yes, those who are not afraid to speak their minds and bring this out on the table for discussion. Here is to holding the standards high, as they should be! The Students are the better for it!!! The real students do not wish for just an easy way, but the EFFECTIVE way -- they wish to know the best TKD that they can absorb as individuals. The true students will not give up, but will rise to meet standards held high.
Of course this can "thin the herd" of the Dojang, but some Instructors do not wish simply for money only! They will not compromise their standards just for revenue!
Well at least you think Stuart is an asset, to bad you do not feel the same with me, maybe one day we can meet and train.
Well at least you think Stuart is an asset, to bad you do not feel the same with me, maybe one day we can meet and train.One of the main reasonI am with Stuart is we belief in the same things and that is the core of TKD everything else is just padding for some.
All I know about you is that you say you teach Kukki TKD. When I asked YoungMan about this beastly Kukki SD training he was repping, you posted links to some of the most atrocious teaching on the internet. What would you expect me to think?
I have seen Stuart's training methods. I have seen his students fight. There are things that I would do differently, but overall, I am pleased with what I see.
On every forum, there are TKD practitioners (or Wing Chun practitioners, or Bujinkan practitioners, or kenpo practitioners) who get up in arms when people criticize their training.
When the critics point to the piss poor public examples representing these arts, the constant response is "Yes, but we don't train like that!"
So the critics then ask to see what "THE R34L" TKD, or Chun, or ninjerism looks like...
And one of two things happens.
Either A) the protestors post videos or spar or what not, and the critics see that the so-called R34L sucks just as they thought it would...
or, more commonly...
B) deafening silence. At least until the next critic comes along, and the protests of "Yes, but that's not how we train" rise again...
I've trained in almost every facet of TKD, from sport to things so traditional that it could only be called Korean karate. I've trained with people who were there when TKD was founded, not the watered-down training you said I had.
I want to believe, Terry. I'm just too skeptical to cut anyone any slack. I won't give the benefit of the doubt.
SageGhost83
Brown Belt
It seems that you already had come to your conclusion before you even participated and were not going to budge from that conclusion no matter what anybody posted. So that begs the question - why did you even bother to begin with? You said that you have had this conversation billions of times and it just ends the same way, so why do you keep having it? If you don't care enough anymore and you feel that you are wasting your time, then why do you even take the time to post in the first place? You present your argument in a way - you have come to a conclusion and anybody who doesn't respond or do anything exactly like you is illogical and irrational. A bit narrowminded and arrogant, wouldn't you say? You obviously have a chip on your shoulder because you have done nothing but go after people who, in essence, agree with you. My main disagreement with you is the fact that you blindly assume things about people you don't know and that you make gross generalizations about people's training when you really don't know what they do or how they do it. If you are so cynical and you have come to such a strong conclusion that nobody is going to shake it then why don't you just ignore us. We'll just go on doing the very things that, ironically, you say needs to be done to make TKD more SD oriented. Btw, nobody needs to prove anything to you or to anybody else for that matter. If people are just going to get "up in arms" as you say, then why are you wasting your time criticizing them in the first place? You wouldn't be out trolling, now would you?
Skepticism is healthy. Making decisions based on assumptions, however, is not.
I've seen Terry and his wife and kids train (but not his class; sadly, my mother had me too scheduled in last time I was in Dallas to see more), and they've attended my class, and worked out with my sahbum, who is a VII Dan, the student of a IX Dan, who was himself a student of Gen. Choi, Hong Hi, and at one point the VP of the USTF until his integrity caused him to resign - I have no doubts about his abilities or those of his students. I say that as a member of the YomChi Taekwon-Do Association; we came from the USTF and ITF, and left when, in our opinion, the pursuit of money overcame the quest for excellence. Terry is a quality instructor, who produces quality students. The fact that he includes the Kukkiwon curriculum in his training (note that I say "includes", not "limits himself to") does not reduce the quality of his training.
SageGhost83
Brown Belt
My sentiments exactly! I would like to add that treating those assumptions as some kind of concrete truth and using them to go after others that you don't even know is also not healthy.
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
arguably, Errant108, the onus would be on you as well in like manner. It's relatively easy to take a video of someone's training and critique it on many levels.
(As an aside, I for one have rarely seen any videos that were supposed to be "this is how we train. They seem to usually be highly stylized examples of the techniques to work, but not the intensity and realism needed to train said techniques effectively... in other words, technical examples, not training examples)
Anyway, in fairness, it would be good to present what you consider and train as effective self-defense in your art. (if you have and I missed it, my apologies, as I've been only following this thread on occasion)
(As an aside, I for one have rarely seen any videos that were supposed to be "this is how we train. They seem to usually be highly stylized examples of the techniques to work, but not the intensity and realism needed to train said techniques effectively... in other words, technical examples, not training examples)
Anyway, in fairness, it would be good to present what you consider and train as effective self-defense in your art. (if you have and I missed it, my apologies, as I've been only following this thread on occasion)
SageGhost83
Brown Belt
He keeps saying that so-and-so "sucks", so I would like to know what constitutes "suckage" in his view. At least something to work with other than "blah blah blah sucks because my own blind assumptions say so" :lol2:.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
.....too many..............jokes...........brain............exploding................make it stop........
I would like to add one thing here OK just for the record, never did I ever say I teach KKW TKD, what I said was I am KKW TKD two different gems here people. I too have trained witth some of the best possible people in TKD and at no time do I question any thing they say. I have been KKW certified because My GM did so got my 4th years ago so I did not need anyone else to get a KKW and be under them. I stand alone until recently and have choosen a path with Stuart and a few others to bring back something that has been long over due. I started teaching WTF styke of sparring only 7 years ago and have been very lucky with some of my fighter mainly because they do not play tag when there spare they hit and hit hard, the only reason we do sport sid eis my oldest sons dream of being in the Olympics with TKD and for that to happen he needs this, We do alot of point, continuous and Olympic sparring. My BB have a three day test for Dan rank and a 6 hours test for poom rank, most people cannot even do what my student do, period. I never once said I was the best just that I train people the best way I know how and so far it works, I also train Leo on CQC, so I must know something I also have people come to me about training again I must be doing something right.
I do not care what you or anybody else beliefs or thinks about me, when I test in a year and yes I will be flying over sea's to test in front of Stuart and some other it will be for me and no-one else. I do not need anybody approvel about me and what I stand for. Been training since I was two just like my son's. I enjoy all aspect of Martial Arts and mine is a life journey for me and one day I will find enternal peace within me.
I am glad to see so many jump up to protect me and I appreciate it but you see I need no protection if I did everybody and there Moma would never know I did Olympic within my school, I make it public so I do not need to make excuses. It is my school I built it worked it and clean it, I am the janitor and head instructor, a mentor and a father to alot of people beside my kids. I am the person my father and GM would be proud to say they trained and that is all that matters to me. I do not need you or anybody else questioning my motives, see I do not care about rank and I do not care what people think about me beside my family. I can die anyday and walk up to God and say I did everything I was suppose to and a little bit more.
My heart is full of joy and is pure of people with negitivity. One day we shall meet either here or in the big dojaang in the sky and will look back on this and laugh until then I will keep saying what my signature says........
Changing Tae Kwon Do one person at a time.
Bringing back Tae Kwon Do one student at a time. I live by these word and have hope that ine day it will happen
I do not care what you or anybody else beliefs or thinks about me, when I test in a year and yes I will be flying over sea's to test in front of Stuart and some other it will be for me and no-one else. I do not need anybody approvel about me and what I stand for. Been training since I was two just like my son's. I enjoy all aspect of Martial Arts and mine is a life journey for me and one day I will find enternal peace within me.
I am glad to see so many jump up to protect me and I appreciate it but you see I need no protection if I did everybody and there Moma would never know I did Olympic within my school, I make it public so I do not need to make excuses. It is my school I built it worked it and clean it, I am the janitor and head instructor, a mentor and a father to alot of people beside my kids. I am the person my father and GM would be proud to say they trained and that is all that matters to me. I do not need you or anybody else questioning my motives, see I do not care about rank and I do not care what people think about me beside my family. I can die anyday and walk up to God and say I did everything I was suppose to and a little bit more.
My heart is full of joy and is pure of people with negitivity. One day we shall meet either here or in the big dojaang in the sky and will look back on this and laugh until then I will keep saying what my signature says........
Changing Tae Kwon Do one person at a time.
Bringing back Tae Kwon Do one student at a time. I live by these word and have hope that ine day it will happen
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chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Skepticism is great as long as you reserve a healthy portion of skepticism about skepticism itself. Otherwise you really aren't being skeptical.
Kacey, I was under the impression that GM Lang was always a student of GM Sereff before he split form the USTF. When did he become a direct student of Gen. Choi? Does he have any interesting stories about training with the General as his student?
Speaking from my own very limited experience with Kukki TKD, the Kukkiwon's official curriculum is extremely limited. When I was training at a WTF club back in college the Master Instructor, who is a Korean and was fairly well known in the USTU back in the day, included ITF tuls along with some throws and joint locks to round out the "official" curriculum.
Pax,
Chris
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
Nice!!! Thx
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Chris and everyone else please let me say this one more time, we do not run the KKW curriculum we just get those that need the KKW certs for competition only. I do the Tae Gueks,Palgues and the Chom-Ji sets of poomsae and do my style of Self defense which is totally different than anything the KKW does. I hope this helps but somehow I really doubt it.
P.S. Errant why do you choose not to see we are on the same side of the street, remember I did not say same type of training just on the street.
Actually, GM Lang started under David Kim (if I'm recalling the man's name correctly) at CU-Boulder; at one point, he was training simultaneously under his first instructor and GM Sereff. As some point he became a student of Gen. Choi; if you look at my post I didn't say when, just that it happened.
1) You have not understood a thing I've said. You've misinterpreted everything I stated as an attack on Terry, rather than actually trying to understand what I said. I haven't attacked Terry at all, or accused him of teaching anything.
B) Rather than respond with logical discourse, you'd prefer to attempt to derail by inquiring as to what my motivations may be, red herring and ad hom, all rolled into one.
If you're not interested in logical, rational, adult discourse, please do not waste my time any further.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053
Watch the whole video.
I have not made any blind assumptions. Go back to my analysis of what was offered to me of "self-defense".
