If that's the case, then his arguments against my statements don't make any sense.
Either he's defending Kukki Taekwondo or he's not.
I'll believe it when I see it.
TKD and Everyone Else
- Thread starter ellies
- Start date
If that's the case, then his arguments against my statements don't make any sense.
Either he's defending Kukki Taekwondo or he's not.
I'll believe it when I see it.
newGuy12
Master of Arts
Yes. The "disagreement" here is an illusion -- it is a misunderstanding. I'm glad that you brought that out (again), because I wanted to say it, but I cannot express myself so well as to bring it to light.
Bingo.
I have said nothing to preclude teaching TKD as a viable self-defense curriculum. However, the arguments that were brought forward were not logical. They will not stand up against the larger MA & SD community.
This is my challenge to those who do TKD. If you're going to teach functional SD... BRING IT. Show us that what you have to offer works in an alive environment. Show us a TKD you can be proud of. Stop defending bullcrap just because it bears the name TKD. Call out those who promote BS in your art, even if it costs you standing and face, even if they strip you of your rank & kick you out.
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
More complicated (subtle) than that...
He's saying that KKW does have a self-defense curriculum, but is not claiming it's effectiveness or that he teaches it or follows it. Just making the point that that KKW does at least include it in it's offerings.
He's also saying that he offers KKW certification for those who want it for international competition and other places where having certification is needed, but he's not saying that KKW or WTF orgs define the way he teaches or trains
In other words he's defending KKW at points where they can honestly be defended, but not in points where he doesn't believe they can...but it's not an all or nothing, either/or proposal
Membership in an organization does not mean the organization defines who you are
SageGhost83
Brown Belt
I don't know if you have been paying attention or if you even bothered to read through any of the threads related to this topic, but everybody here is in total agreement with you concerning the anger toward what passes as "viable TKD" and the need to get back to the SD roots of the style. Yes, more and more people are starting to call out those who promote BS in our art, why do you think the term "Mcdojang" is being bandied about so much more these days? Have you even bothered to read about the PioneerTKD organization that is focused primarily on SD, stress testing techniques, and bringing the style back to roots? What about the evolution of TKD and the new orgs that are forming to break away to teach their own SD oriented curriculum? Unless you have trained with everybody who is part of TKD and you know for a fact what *every* instructor teaches in *every* school, then why make gross generalizations about TKD or any style for that matter? We know what is wrong with TKD - We get it! We are doing our part to fix it, and others are following suit. It won't be an overnight thing, but you've got to start somewhere, and at least we are doing something about it like you have suggested. You are calling us out when, in fact, we agree with you and are doing the very things that you are suggesting. Btw, didn't you say that you no longer practice TKD? If this is so, THEN WHY ON EARTH DO YOU EVEN CARE ABOUT WHAT WE ARE DOING OR WHY WE ARE DOING IT!? Or do you just have a chip on your shoulder and you feel like trolling?
SageGhost83
Brown Belt
Why are you assuming things about Terry when you don't know a damn thing about him or the way he trains/teaches? You have no idea what he teaches, how he teaches, or how he works his self defense components. Are you in his class? Do you train with him? If not, then you would do yourself a real favor to not make assumptions about him or what he does because you really don't know about either. The fact that you made such sweeping generalizations to begin with is really saying a lot in and of itself...
FF Thanks you so much one has never been defined by an org, one is defined by a lifetime of devotion to application that are of SD principle,
Just on a side note U have also study Okinawa Karate, Kempo, Ground work, that is right it was not called grappling back then, Akido, judo,kung fu. But I stay with TKD because of tought it to me. Also combat Hapkido.
Defending what they do is one thing, I have never said I teach anybody there SD material only they have some. Please read what is being said.
Thanks Sageghost83 for the backup, some people will judge before they know, other will just keep saying the same thing over and over. Yet there are those view that can see past those three little letters TKD and remember when it was a means of SD. Like Errant said he trained with some people that came over what he got then was that water down version, that most westerners got back in those early days. I kinda feel sorry for people that actually never experience some hard core TKD. Like I have said in a number of thread some people look at what we do and say that is not TKD and I keep saying the same as my GM if I am teaching you it, it is know for I teach TKD. With that being said, lets see where this thread goes it has been a blast to get people opinion here and it has been civilized which is great to. Keep this type of converstation up and we may change the way people type on a chat line and then who know the world could follow suit.
That is my feeling; it is also important to me that the student knows that it isn't an adult blackbelt. That is why I don't believe that poom rank students should be allowed to wear a black belt; kids don't differentiate the way adults do, and the tendency is to simply say, 'I'm a blackbelt' if the school allows them to wear one.
Daniel
That is why they have poom belts to bad so many schools never use them, it would sure help with the way people precieves TKD. Thank you fro your insight.
Thank YOU Terry! Most of my insight is simply the result of reading material by or conversing directly with those more knowledgeable and experienced than myself. I have some small perspective as a TKD practitioner.
It is too bad that more schools don't use the poom belt; the certificate does say poom, but I think that a lot of school owners fear for their business if there isn't a 'black' belt being presented to young students who's parents want to be done with it after two years and see a belt for their kids as necessary feather in their kids' cap and in their own parenting caps. 'My child has a blackbelt, and is a member of the debate team.'
The thing that saddens me most about this mentality is that it is a belt that is seen as having importance rather than the knowledge and technique that the belt is supposed to represent.
Daniel
It is too bad that more schools don't use the poom belt; the certificate does say poom, but I think that a lot of school owners fear for their business if there isn't a 'black' belt being presented to young students who's parents want to be done with it after two years and see a belt for their kids as necessary feather in their kids' cap and in their own parenting caps. 'My child has a blackbelt, and is a member of the debate team.'
The thing that saddens me most about this mentality is that it is a belt that is seen as having importance rather than the knowledge and technique that the belt is supposed to represent.
Daniel
Daniel I agree one hundred percent, to bad there is not alot more folks that understand that. :asian:
The thing that saddens me most about this mentality is that it is a belt that is seen as having importance rather than the knowledge and technique that the belt is supposed to represent.
The thing that saddens me most about this mentality is that it is a belt that is seen as having importance rather than the knowledge and technique that the belt is supposed to represent.
Tswolfman
Green Belt
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2005
- Messages
- 136
- Reaction score
- 1
Unfortuately alot of people don't know any better then the belt is just a belt. I know of way to many people that are so disillusioned because of other schools just handing out belts that they don't want to keep trying. It is so hard to talk to people when they keep up the wrong attitude about what a "Black Belt " is and what it isn't. IT IS WHAT YOU AS A PERSON MAKES IT TO BE. Some Black belts are better then others. that is just the way it is. Too bad most people can't get that in there heads.
dortiz
Black Belt
A Black Belt is only as good as the student and the teacher that presented it.
A degree from Harvard is not the same as a degree from the Harvey technical institute of Bayonne.
A degree from Harvard is not the same as a degree from the Harvey technical institute of Bayonne.
SageGhost83
Brown Belt
You implied that you know Terry, what he trains/teaches, and the quality of his training/teaching:
How are you justified in blindly assuming something about an instructor that you have never trained under/with? It is just an ignorant, sweeping generalization about individuals just because they belong to a particular organization despite the fact that no two people teach exactly the same way or incorporate the same exact material into their own programs. Such is the fallacy of dismissing someone as a viable instructor of self-defense training merely on the basis of what organization they are affiliated with. Some people are affiliated with Kukki, but they also add their own self-defense components to what they teach and the total package is more than adaquate. Heck, there are even WTF schools that add elements of Hapkido and/or BJJ to their curriculum as self-defense components to address this need. You say that doing this isn't Kukki, but who is to say that Kukki can't evolve and grow in this manner? Who is to say that Kukki won't revise its curriculum to include this material in this particular area? Arts are still growing and orgs are still upgrading and revising their standards, you know?
newGuy12
Master of Arts
whoa! wrong thread! how did that happen? I have made a mistake, this is not a real post here.
Wrong right thread, we love people with opinion.
Okay.. as my name was brought up.
I see exactly what Errant108 is saying, but I also see exactly what Terry and others are saying.
So I take both them out of it and put myself in the frame.
Many will say (incorrectly I may add) that I teach ITF TKD. ITF TKD has hosinsul.. but it mostly sucks.. Terry point! I wont back ITF purely because it has hosinsul.. Errant108 point!
What I will say is this.. the TKD world need people like Terry & Errant108, they keep others on their toes and aint afraid to expose the BS associated with it all. And the WTF world need people like Terry, period.
Errant108 is right.. there will be no mass changes (IMO), Terry and others are doing this a school at a time.. however, we are about to challenge that way of thinking.. Terry is a major player in that regards, wouldnt it be great if Errant108 was too!!
Stuart
Ps. Errant108.. with regards to the bayonet defences I agree that both hands should be kept on the weapon if possible.. undoubtibly so.. control of the weapon is the primary concern. I disagee on 2 points however, 1) that the UFC allow downward elbows to the spine.. AFAIK (which isnt much TBH) spine attacks in the UFC are banned! 2) That elbow strikes to the spine are low percentage techniques... by what sourse.. I think this may come from elbowing to the back with the tricep (ie. incorrectly done), rather than the spine with the point of the elbow.. I know if I have to do it.. someones gonna be in much pain!
I see exactly what Errant108 is saying, but I also see exactly what Terry and others are saying.
So I take both them out of it and put myself in the frame.
Many will say (incorrectly I may add) that I teach ITF TKD. ITF TKD has hosinsul.. but it mostly sucks.. Terry point! I wont back ITF purely because it has hosinsul.. Errant108 point!
What I will say is this.. the TKD world need people like Terry & Errant108, they keep others on their toes and aint afraid to expose the BS associated with it all. And the WTF world need people like Terry, period.
Errant108 is right.. there will be no mass changes (IMO), Terry and others are doing this a school at a time.. however, we are about to challenge that way of thinking.. Terry is a major player in that regards, wouldnt it be great if Errant108 was too!!
Stuart
Ps. Errant108.. with regards to the bayonet defences I agree that both hands should be kept on the weapon if possible.. undoubtibly so.. control of the weapon is the primary concern. I disagee on 2 points however, 1) that the UFC allow downward elbows to the spine.. AFAIK (which isnt much TBH) spine attacks in the UFC are banned! 2) That elbow strikes to the spine are low percentage techniques... by what sourse.. I think this may come from elbowing to the back with the tricep (ie. incorrectly done), rather than the spine with the point of the elbow.. I know if I have to do it.. someones gonna be in much pain!
