Thoughts on time variance to earn black belt

[dvcochran]

This is a sad state of affairs I have lamented for decades. It's not a new problem, but probably getting worse. Karate has never been unified like judo or kendo, with a more or less central authority (in Japan, with quasi government connections. May have happened if not for WW II.) There are many styles, and in the West, little or no central authority within each individual style. Thus, each dojo's sensei is the sole determiner of belt qualifications. Expectations have largely degraded over the years due to:

Commercialization. Lessening of peer pressure amongst other sensei due to the sheer numbers nowadays - it's not a close knit black belt community anymore. Time separation from the ideals held by the previous masters - and maybe a corresponding loss of respect of the old karate. A feeling of entitlement by some sensei that allows them to do what they want, regardless of the previous point. And a general dumbing down of our society, where high school graduates barely read or know how to critically think - expectations have lowered overall.

Unfortunately, the cat is out of the bag, and there is probably no way to put it back. There are too many factions within each style (they can't even keep their forms similar to each other.) No way will they get together and agree to unite under one banner at this point. This leads to the problems Skribs brought up. But those are internal problems within the karate world.
Perhaps more important is the effect on the perceptions of the general public. With so many poor quality black belt "experts" running around, the public loses its respect for the ranks. If a 7 year old can get a black belt, how special can karate be? Can the public have faith that karate is really a worthwhile endeavor? This hurts the art in the long run.

Sometimes, the sensei is aware of these things, but doesn't care that much. Sometimes, he is so far removed from the original concept, he is unaware of the situation, unaware of staying true to the style's originators, unaware of the effects of his teaching.

I see no practical solution. Each individual school must be taken on its own merits. What is low proficiency in one school may be considered great in another. For a transfer from another school, if his green belt skill is inferior to the new school's green, he may get discouraged, or conversely, be motivated to get better. If his skill is superior to similar belts in the new school, he may lose respect for it, or have his ego inflated. Fortunately, there are dojos and sensei who truly respect the art and its legacy, and strive to remain true to it, holding high expectations.

In the end, all we have is being true to one's self.

Agree. I have been in a lot of different schools and can honestly say very few of them are truly cookie cutter. Even schools doing the same form set(s).
In my opinion that is a Very, very good thing.

 

[skribs]

So when you go into another TKD school you go with a sense of self governing, authoritative, and independent with your actions?
I would be humble and gracious and never with a sense of autonomy and authority.
Am I miss understanding something?

Yes, you are.

If I go into a school and I'm a white belt, I can't be an instructor. Even if I go in as an advanced belt or a lower ranking black belt, there's a chance I wouldn't have that opportunity. Let's look at it a different way. I plan to open my own school eventually. If my current school shut down (for whatever reason) and I had to go to a new school, or if I got laid off and had to move to find work, I wouldn't want to be set back in doing so. If I have to start over, then I have to add that many years before I can get the certifications I'd need to run my own school within the organization.

I would definitely be humble and try to learn their stuff their way. But I also don't want to reset my years of progress climbing the ranks just because I changed schools.

So did this girl stick it out and get up to par? If so did it really matter? Especially if everyone saw what it took for her to get there.

She stuck it out and improved. It mattered because for several months, she felt humiliated every time we ran drills as a class. Everyone was supportive of her, but it was still humiliating that she was so far behind everyone else. I shouldn't have to explain why it's important for a young girl to feel confident instead of embarrassed.

 

[dvcochran]

but it was still humiliating that she was so far behind

I shouldn't have to explain why it's important for a young girl to feel confident instead of embarrassed.

If she stuck it out she was not humiliated for very long. Disappointed in the previous training? Frustrated at times? Likely.

I suspect she had a ton of confidence that you just never saw. Takes a big person to overcome such a setback.

 

[skribs]

If she stuck it out she was not humiliated for very long. Disappointed in the previous training? Frustrated at times? Likely.

I suspect she had a ton of confidence that you just never saw. Takes a big person to overcome such a setback.

Is this another case of you trying to tell me you know more about my experiences than I do?

 

[dvcochran]

Is this another case of you trying to tell me you know more about my experiences than I do?

No; It is a reflection of something I have learned from my lifetime of experiences.
You put up your threads and then get offended when people give answers when they do not fit your narrow frame of mind. That is not gaining wisdom. That is fitting an agenda. That is on you. I suggest you actually think and learn from some of the answers instead of just putting up another thread before you have processed the last one.

I appreciate the fact that you put of lots of threads. They are sometimes enlightening and sometimes entertaining.

 

[skribs]

No; It is a reflection of something I have learned from my lifetime of experiences.
You put up your threads and then get offended when people give answers when they do not fit your narrow frame of mind. That is not gaining wisdom. That is fitting an agenda. That is on you. I suggest you actually think and learn from some of the answers instead of just putting up another thread before you have processed the last one.

I appreciate the fact that you put of lots of threads. They are sometimes enlightening and sometimes entertaining.

I get offended when people make assumptions about my experiences and try to tell me they know more about my experience than I do.

I watched this girl be frustrated and embarrassed for months, and you're like "well maybe she was actually confident." You weren't there. You don't know.

 

[dvcochran]

I get offended when people make assumptions about my experiences and try to tell me they know more about my experience than I do.

I watched this girl be frustrated and embarrassed for months, and you're like "well maybe she was actually confident." You weren't there. You don't know.

You saw her from the outside. From your posts you never appreciated the strength she was showing by fighting through the adversity. That is a poor quality for someone aspiring to instruct others.

 

[skribs]

You saw her from the outside. From your posts you never appreciated the strength she was showing by fighting through the adversity. That is a poor quality for someone aspiring to instruct others.

First off, where did I show that I didn't appreciate it? I did. But that came after months of humiliation. I don't think that humiliation is a pre-requisite for strength. I think she would have been better served being in a class that would boost her confidence instead of one that would shatter it every day for months. Did she overcome it in the long run? Yes. Would she still have experienced frustration and growth in a lower class? Also yes. And she might have grown faster if she wasn't being pushed so hard.

It's like when you're lifting weights. If your max single-rep is 90 pounds, you don't load up 90 pounds. You load up 70 pounds and do several reps. That's how you grow faster. You don't get more gains by making it harder on yourself. You gain more gains by being realistic about your current level, and then pushing yourself. In this story, it's more like she was loaded with 150 pounds, and had to have a spotter help her with every rep.

I do love the added insult at the end, though. Where you make baseless assumptions about me, and then tell me I'm bad at my job based on those assumptions.

 

[dvcochran]

Where you make baseless assumptions about me, and then tell me I'm bad at my job based on those assumptions.

No digs but I would be remiss if I did not give an experienced comment to a potential future instructor.

Please do not put words in my mouth. You ask for opinion/advise yet get easily offended when it is given.

I bet the girl will have a good life story to tell and help others down the road. Adversity is an excellent teacher.

 

[skribs]

No digs but I would be remiss if I did not give an experienced comment to a potential future instructor.

Please do not put words in my mouth. You ask for opinion/advise yet get easily offended when it is given.

I bet the girl will have a good life story to tell and help others down the road. Adversity is an excellent teacher.

I am an instructor, not a future instructor.

You said "That is a poor quality for someone aspiring to instruct others." Right after you put words in my mouth and made baseless assumptions about me. I did not put words into your mouth. You did put words into mine. Now you're just being a hypocrite.

You're also the only person I'm arguing with in this thread. Out of 10 people, I'm arguing with 1 person. 9 out of 10 people I'm fine with. You assume I'm easily offended because I don't like what you have to say. Maybe it's because what you say is offensive, and not because I'm easily offended. But of course, it's easier to say "you're easily offended" because I don't worship the pixels you type on, than to admit that maybe you've got a part in me being offended.

 

[dvcochran]

I am an instructor, not a future instructor.

You said "That is a poor quality for someone aspiring to instruct others." Right after you put words in my mouth and made baseless assumptions about me. I did not put words into your mouth. You did put words into mine. Now you're just being a hypocrite.

You're also the only person I'm arguing with in this thread. Out of 10 people, I'm arguing with 1 person. 9 out of 10 people I'm fine with. You assume I'm easily offended because I don't like what you have to say. Maybe it's because what you say is offensive, and not because I'm easily offended. But of course, it's easier to say "you're easily offended" because I don't worship the pixels you type on, than to admit that maybe you've got a part in me being offended.

Funny. You have repeatedly mentioned you aspire to open your own school (an instructor). Helping out with classes or even leading a kids class is a LONG way from owning your own school.
Trying to help someone in that endeavor is my goal. If you cannot not take my candid advise you have a Big hill to climb.

 

[skribs]

Funny. You have repeatedly mentioned you aspire to open your own school (an instructor). Helping out with classes or even leading a kids class is a LONG way from owning your own school.

When I open my own school I will be a chief instructor or master. As it stands, I am an instructor at my school.

The difference is in the level of control I will have. Right now, I have to teach my Master's curriculum his way. As a chief instructor, I would teach my Master's curriculum my way, or as a Master I could have my own curriculum for the students.

Trying to help someone in that endeavor is my goal. If you cannot not take my candid advise you have a Big hill to climb.

Just how arrogant are you? You think people can't succeed without your advice? Believe it or not, I do read all the advice you give me. I just reject most of it, because I don't think it's good advice. You just can't handle that rejection, and try to make it my fault that you're giving bad advice.

 

[wab25]

Autonomy and authority.

So, just for giggles here... What happens when, for whatever reason, you change schools? You take your autonomy and authority over to a new school, and you find out that you are the little girl you told us about. In other words, at the new school, your 3rd degree black belt skills don't measure up to their black belt standards... but they do measure up to a blue or yellow belt in the new school. What do you then do with your autonomy and authority? Do you still expect to be an instructor there? Do you follow the example of the girl, and stick it out until you do measure up? Or do you go find a different school?

I also don't want to reset my years of progress climbing the ranks

Just an observation here. Many of the folks on this site that you argue with, are not trying to "climb the ranks." They are trying to study an art. They are trying to improve what they do. They are going deep into the movements and techniques, trying to learn not only what to do, but why and how it works, and when, and what is the philosophy behind, the strategy, the core principles... Whatever their rank may be, is not important, but the understanding they have gained is.

Yes, different folks like different things. And on this board we are friendly and try to be positive and supportive. We need to understand that some people here are mostly concerned with climbing ranks and gaining authority. And if that what martial arts does for you, thats great. But when you ask questions here... you need to realize that you will then get answers from a lot of people... many of those people don't care about the rank climbing business, but about gaining a deeper understanding of the arts. They are going to give you different answers, because they have a very different view of what martial arts are about. It doesn't make either side wrong... because both sides are actually dealing with different problems. If you want to open your own school, and be the master, it would be good to understand both mindsets... or your potential student pool will be cut in half, if you don't understand what the other type of student wants. Note that I am not saying it is right or wrong to cut your potential student pool in half. (I do it with my class... if a new student shows up to my class wanting to collect another black belt to put on their wall... I used to send them to the martial arts store, before it closed down... now I send them to the closest strip mall McDojo... The Walmart down the street from us had McDojo in it for a while... it was great! Yes it would be easier to make rent if I took them all... )

 

[dvcochran]

When I open my own school I will be a chief instructor or master. As it stands, I am an instructor at my school.

The difference is in the level of control I will have. Right now, I have to teach my Master's curriculum his way. As a chief instructor, I would teach my Master's curriculum my way, or as a Master I could have my own curriculum for the students.



Just how arrogant are you? You think people can't succeed without your advice? Believe it or not, I do read all the advice you give me. I just reject most of it, because I don't think it's good advice. You just can't handle that rejection, and try to make it my fault that you're giving bad advice.

Best of luck with all your lofty titles. You certainly need all the help you can get.

 

[skribs]

So, just for giggles here... What happens when, for whatever reason, you change schools? You take your autonomy and authority over to a new school, and you find out that you are the little girl you told us about. In other words, at the new school, your 3rd degree black belt skills don't measure up to their black belt standards... but they do measure up to a blue or yellow belt in the new school. What do you then do with your autonomy and authority? Do you still expect to be an instructor there? Do you follow the example of the girl, and stick it out until you do measure up? Or do you go find a different school?

I don't honestly know. If I did join a new school and my skills were found to be lacking, first I'd be very surprised to find my skills are that low, considering what I'm capable of doing. If I did, I would try and decide whether this new school has ridiculously high standards and I shouldn't waste my time, or if there are definitely things I can improve by being there. If I am at the level of their yellow belts, I certainly wouldn't pretend or try to be an instructor, because I wouldn't have much to offer them.

Just an observation here. Many of the folks on this site that you argue with, are not trying to "climb the ranks." They are trying to study an art. They are trying to improve what they do. They are going deep into the movements and techniques, trying to learn not only what to do, but why and how it works, and when, and what is the philosophy behind, the strategy, the core principles... Whatever their rank may be, is not important, but the understanding they have gained is.

I'm trying to learn all of those as well. I think that both extreme ends of the argument ("rank is meaningless" and "rank is everything") are both wrong. A lot of people key in on one thing and think it's the most important thing, and forget about a lot of the other stuff.

For example, at my old job at the help desk, we get told that our tickets are open too long, and we need to start closing tickets faster. So what do half the techs say? "They only care about ticket times."
Then we get told that we need to get more customer comment cards filled out. Now half the techs are saying "They can't make up their minds. First it's only ticket times, now all they care about is comment cards."

It was never the case that ticket times or comment cards were the only metrics that management cared about. Both were important, and not at the exclusion of other metrics that weren't mentioned. But because it was brought up as a strategic goal in a meeting, the assumption is that's the only thing that matters. This is how I feel about rank. Rank isn't the only thing to gain, but it's still important.

 

[wab25]

If I did join a new school and my skills were found to be lacking, first I'd be very surprised to find my skills are that low, considering what I'm capable of doing.

This describes the way everyone feels, when they leave one school for another. I would guess even the girl you told us about. What matters is what you do once you find out.

I think that both extreme ends of the argument ("rank is meaningless" and "rank is everything") are both wrong.

Not wrong, different. They have different needs, different wants and different goals. Is it wrong to call the down block by its Korean name or Japanese name or Chinese name or English name? Sure, they are different, but not necessarily wrong. If you are studying a Japanese art, use the Japanese name. If you are studying a Chinese art, use the Chinese name.

A lot of people key in on one thing and think it's the most important thing, and forget about a lot of the other stuff.

Some people want one thing and not the other. Its not that they forget the other stuff... they don't care about it, as it does not pertain to their goal. If my goal is to learn a Japanese art, its not that I forget the Korean name or the Chinese, its that I don't care about those names, as my goal is to learn the Japanese form. I may never even learn those other names, as they don't pertain to my goal. But, when I come to a forum like this one and ask a question, I will get answers from Korean arts, Chinese arts, Russian arts.... and maybe even Japanese arts. It doesn't do me any good to get upset that they don't call it Gedan Barai. Nor are they wrong if their first form/kata does not start with Gedan Barai. It means we have different goals, and have found different solutions. But we can still share what we have learned with each other... even if the other guy does it in the wrong order, and uses the wrong name... because to him, we are the other guy.

This place is not about authority, or pulling rank or showing people that they are wrong. Its about sharing what we have learned in the hope that it may help someone else. If it doesn't help, move along... it may help someone else. I doubt it was put here with the intent to offend.

 

[skribs]

This describes the way everyone feels, when they leave one school for another. I would guess even the girl you told us about. What matters is what you do once you find out.
Not wrong, different. They have different needs, different wants and different goals. Is it wrong to call the down block by its Korean name or Japanese name or Chinese name or English name? Sure, they are different, but not necessarily wrong. If you are studying a Japanese art, use the Japanese name. If you are studying a Chinese art, use the Chinese name.
Some people want one thing and not the other. Its not that they forget the other stuff... they don't care about it, as it does not pertain to their goal. If my goal is to learn a Japanese art, its not that I forget the Korean name or the Chinese, its that I don't care about those names, as my goal is to learn the Japanese form. I may never even learn those other names, as they don't pertain to my goal. But, when I come to a forum like this one and ask a question, I will get answers from Korean arts, Chinese arts, Russian arts.... and maybe even Japanese arts. It doesn't do me any good to get upset that they don't call it Gedan Barai. Nor are they wrong if their first form/kata does not start with Gedan Barai. It means we have different goals, and have found different solutions. But we can still share what we have learned with each other... even if the other guy does it in the wrong order, and uses the wrong name... because to him, we are the other guy.

This place is not about authority, or pulling rank or showing people that they are wrong. Its about sharing what we have learned in the hope that it may help someone else. If it doesn't help, move along... it may help someone else. I doubt it was put here with the intent to offend.

To be clear, when I said "authority and autonomy," it was in answer to the specific question of why it's important to be a higher belt. The higher the rank, the more freedom I have. A lot of that is in line with what you're saying.

Let's role-play a little bit: You're my Taekwondo Master. You have us learn the Korean names of techniques, because you feel it's more precise and better preserves the history of Taekwondo. I prefer using English, because I struggle learning new languages and I think it's easier for students to learn the technique if they don't also have to learn a new language with it. However, because you're the Master and I'm teaching under you, I have to teach the Korean names.

If I am a higher rank and I have my own school under your banner, maybe I decide to teach the techniques in English. I still have to teach your techniques and still have to use your forms. But I at least get to run my classes a little bit different.

If I am an even higher rank and I have my own school under my own name, I have more freedom still. I can teach the forms I want and the techniques I want. It doesn't make you wrong or me wrong. It's that I have different goals and different methods of achieving those goals. Without that rank, I'm not afforded the freedom to do things my own way. (Or I can go unfederated and take that freedom, but without the backing of a worldwide organization).

I know you're a Karate guy and not a TKD guy, but I was just using you as an example because your name is right in front of me at the moment. This is why rank is important to me. So that as I learn more from more and more people (whether it's from MartialTalk, Reddit, Youtube, or when I finally get around to cross-training something outside of my dojang) I have the freedom to use that knowledge the way I see fit.

 

[dvcochran]

I don't honestly know. If I did join a new school and my skills were found to be lacking, first I'd be very surprised to find my skills are that low, considering what I'm capable of doing. If I did, I would try and decide whether this new school has ridiculously high standards and I shouldn't waste my time, or if there are definitely things I can improve by being there.

So let's change @wab25 's very good argument slightly. Let's say you change schools and find you are not up the level of the 1st Dan's or even 1st Gup's. What do you do?

 

[skribs]

So let's change @wab25 's very good argument slightly. Let's say you change schools and find you are not up the level of the 1st Dan's or even 1st Gup's. What do you do?

I'd give the same answer in that scenario.

1. I'd be a bit caught off-guard
2. Decide whether I think it would benefit me more to stay there and improve, or to leave and find somewhere else to train.

It would depend on whether my lower quality is because they have a better curriculum or better instruction; or if it's because they're training for the Olympics and I'm never going to be an Olympian?

Either way, I don't think it would happen that way. What's more likely is I'd have to catch up on their curriculum and their way of doing things, but that's going to be more in line with what @wab25 said in post #36.

Unless I do what I'm planning on, which is to take another art (I'd like to train BJJ after I get my 5th Dan in TKD), in which case I'd obviously be a white belt because I have no rank or experience in BJJ.

Edited a couple times because I accidentally hit "submit" before I was finished typing.

 

[Parzival]

IMO belts should stay white, like how they've done for literally thousands of years. Coloured belts are a new, western invention and they serve no purpose other than to boost a students ego and boost the instructors wallet size. They're useful for seeing who has skill and who doesn't on a quick glance but if you walk into the gym and if you observe you will quickly see who has skill, who doesn't, and who's been training for a long time and who are beginners. They're useful for setting up divisions in tournaments but I'm pretty sure there are other means to do that which don't jeopardize the tradition that martial artists care so much about