This Is A Black Belt School!

[Kirk]

How many of you have "This Is A Black Belt School" or "Make Your
Goal Black Belt" signs, or painted on the wall in your school?
Does anyone know the origin of it? I'm seeing it all over, in
schools where I live, and pictures all over the net. Where'd
it come from?

 

[fist of fury]

The desire to make a quick buck and not worry about teaching a real martial art.

 

[Danny]

First one word for word at my Dojang. Had no idea it was a common thing.

 

[Damian Mavis]

It's a money making ploy. If they push it into your head that your goal is black belt and quitting before that is baaaad, then your more likely to stick with it at least to black belt. There is a high drop out rate in the martial arts in the first few months, this cuts that down I would think.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[fist of fury]

I know someone that has those belt factory signs pinned up in his school. I'm waiting for him to get his blackbelt so I can challenge him to a friendly test of skills I want to see if he can make me respect his belt and show me he earned it.
At this point his ego is pretty big so I'm guessing when he gets his bb his head will get so big it's going to explode.

 

[Monkey King]

The truth is, you don't really begin to learn until you reach black belt. That's when the training and understanding of the art truly begin. Alot of people can learn what it takes to make black belt... so what.

Mastering those techniques is the challenge. I call it the fast food mentality. let's get the quick fix, perform with a reasonable amount of skill but not go the distance in learning to master it. That's what separates those that are good from those that are great.

Like I heard someone say a few years ago; "there are alot of really good singers out there...but there's only one Whitney Houston."

Our instructors tell us at the outset that this is a lifetime art...no signs, no promotions, just a history of those who have gone before, and are still learning, still trying to master what they've learned.

 

[TangSooGuy]

First off, while we don't have these signs anywhere in any of the dojangs I've trained at, i have heard the phrase used.

Why automatically assume this bad?

It is true that this is often used as a money making ploy in blacxk belt factories.

However, a black belt school where black belt is the goal (for beginners) isn't automatically negative.

My instructors have always indicated that their purpose was to make good black belts and to teach teachers. The goal is to have the student become an experienced martial art able to pass it on to others (a black belt)

After black belt, new goals are set, but the core that keeps the day to day functioning of the school going is the black belts.

I don't disagree with everything that has been said in this thread; please don't think that I do.

However, i don't think that you can judge a school simply because it uses this type of marketing or philosophy.

 

[fist of fury]

There's nothing wrong with having a personal goal to obtain a bb I just think it's sad thats a schools main focus. To me a school should want to produce the best m.a'ist around the bb will come eventually. Too many schools push this and lead students to believee that the bb is the end of training. The explosion of all those mcdojo's really bug me.

 

[karatekid1975]

My TSD school had a slogen of "Black belt excellence". But they weren't a black belt mill. You had to work your **** off to reach that goal. My instructor pretested the BB canadates, and if you weren't BB material, he had no problem failing you. He wouldn't let you take the real test. He didn't accept "half-assed" attempts.

We don't have a goal or saying like that at my new school, but my new teacher is the same way.

 

[Danny]

To me a school should want to produce the best m.a'ist around the bb will come eventually.

Our BB's are the best M.A. around, and since there the best M.A. around they are ready to be Black Belts by your reasoning. Assuming you keep high stadards for recieveing a BB, which my school does, then producing high quality martial artist equals producing BB's. Does it not?

Too many schools push this and lead students to believee that the bb is the end of training.

BB is the beggining of real training and we tell our students that. However if Black Belt is the start you can imagine why it's important to get your students there.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Never had the sign in my school never will.
If your goal is to make black belt I'll send you down the roard where I know you can get it. If your goal is to learn and improve , to test the limits of your ability and to push them to new limits come in and join us, if you stay long enough you may make black belt
I don't like pushing the idea of a black belt being your goal. and almost promiseing if you pay enough you'll get it.
Shadow:asian:

 

[KumaSan]

I've always thought of this as more of a motivational technique, rather than a marketing technique. Like someone (I think Damian) mentioned, the dropout rate for the first few months is pretty high. If you get it instilled into people that they should set their goal as black belt, then they may be more inclined to stick around. By the time they make it that far, they will most likely have figured out that it is a lifelong activity, not a temporary pastime, and continue training. The one's who leave, well, let'em. Maybe over the previous couple of years, at least maybe the art was some kind of positive impact on their life.

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by Monkey King



Like I heard someone say a few years ago; "there are alot of really good singers out there...but there's only one Whitney Houston."

And I say thank you for that! Seriously, the way I phrase it to people is like this: "There are Black Belts, and then There are BLACK BELTS, just like there are Doctors and there was a Dentist named Doc Holliday."

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

If your goal is to make black belt I'll send you down the roard where I know you can get it. If your goal is to learn and improve , to test the limits of your ability and to push them to new limits come in and join us, if you stay long enough you may make black belt
I don't like pushing the idea of a black belt being your goal. and almost promiseing if you pay enough you'll get it.
Shadow:asian:

A few of my students have this as their stated goal, instead of sending them down the road, I say fine: As long as you don't mind paying for it with sweat, ace bandages, ice and dues for the next three to five years.

 

[TangSooGuy]

I absolutely agree that a black belt needs to be earned, not just given out. I know i earned mine, and i know others earned theirs as well.

Setting your goal at black belt is not a guarantee that you're going to get it. you still need to work hard and learn the material.
It also needs to be reinforced along the way that while this is an admirable goal, it is not the end, merely an end. It is also only another beginning to a whole new path of training.

However, consider this. my instructor has always told us that our goal as instructors should be to produce GOOD Black belts. This isn't just a money-making scheme. Black belts who "get it" and have earned their rank usually help to further the art. additionally, my instructor has always told me he hated to see an intermediate student leave, even if that student was a slacker or had a bad attitude. Why? Once you get to a certain level, you've actually learned just enough technique to be dangerous to others, and have gained just enough confidence to be dangerous to yourself. part of getting someone to black belt is seeing them learn control and gain the knowledge to understand what will work and what won't in given situations.

So I reiterate, i don't think setting black belt as a goal is a bad thing. Setting it as the only goal is a bad thing. Giving it away is a bad thing.

Provided someone is physically able to meet the requirements, I'll even guarantee that I can get them to black belt. They have to make the choice though.

IF they work hard
IF they are determined
IF they are willing to empty their cup
IF they are willing to learn from and teach others
IF...the list goes on...we know it takes a lot to earn black belt.

IF you are willing to do what it takes, yes I can guarantee you that as long as you don't quit, someday you'll make it to black belt. I WON'T tell you how long that will take, because I honestly don't know.


I have seen truly gifted and determined people who came to class 5-6 times a week, helped out wherever they could, studied and practiced on their own time, helped with instruction, etc. make it to black belt in less than 3 years (which is generally about minimum time for our association)

I have seen others not quite as gifted but equally determined take a little over 3 years

I have seen very gifted people with no initial determination take 10 years to get to black belt.

I have seen countless others in a variety of categories give up.

Sorry, I know I'm starting to rant.

It's just that i believe in setting a student's goal at black belt from the start. I don't understandthe arguments against this. I will reinforce over time that this is not the only goal, but it gives them something to focus on while meeting other goals along the way, and then forming a whole new set of goals once black belt is reached.

 

[Kirk]

I admit, getting a b.b. is a goal of mine. So is getting a 2nd
degree, and the more immediate goal .. getting a purple belt.
But a problem exists if the sole goal is b.b. I'd be surprised if
no one has witnessed someone work hard, earn their b.b. and
then LEAVE. Never to be heard from again?

 

[tonbo]

We don't have that sign stuck up anywhere, but it is part of our student creed.

The reason behind it is simple: we are reminding ourselves and others that we are striving for "Black Belt Excellence", not the belt itself. We train to move, fight, practice, and learn with excellence, and the Black Belt is that symbol. True, we state to people that we are not a yellow belt school, or a blue belt school, etc. when asked what that means. Our goal, as instructors, is to help people (students) find that excellence and work with that goal in mind.

Our students are also told *early* in white belt that our goal as instructors is to help them earn their Black--EARN being the key word there. It's like any other skill: you don't start taking music lessons, generally, unless you seriously desire to "master" the skill someday. Sure, you may change your mind later on, but when you start, you don't intend to go halfway and quit--you sign on to be the best you can be at that skill.

I don't think the harm is in the saying. I think the harm is in the intention behind the saying. Is the school using the phrase to get or keep students, or is it a reminder to them that the goal is to achieve a high degree of improvement and skill? What do most people think of when they think of skill in a martial art? My guess is the first thing that jumps to mind is: Black Belt. Using that as the goal marker is something that people can understand. Along the way, on the journey, they will have plenty of time to learn the improvements, and they will definitely reach the goal if they go for it......if they want it, and keep it in mind.

At the risk of blathering on too much....when we cheered on our Olympians recently, did we exhort them to "Go for the Bronze!!"? No, we wanted them to win the *Gold*. Does it mean that we are cheering on a moneymaking scheme and will disdain the athletes if they get anything less? Not at all. Same thing here, in my opinion. We are simply stating that we are "going for the gold".

My opinion, anyway, for my own circumstances. Your mileage may vary.

Peace--

 

[TangSooGuy]

Originally posted by Kirk

I'd be surprised if
no one has witnessed someone work hard, earn their b.b. and
then LEAVE. Never to be heard from again?

This actually happens a lot - every martial arts instructor I've ever talked to from any style admits that.

we do what we can to limit that, though. In my opinion, leaving after black belt takes place primarily due to either a lack of communication along the way, or a lack of understanding. many new black belts don't realize, for one reason or another, that their training changes. There are less and less new techniques to be learned, and they dwell on this rather than delving deeper into what they already know in order to nake new discoveries.
That is one of the biggest complaints I have heard from fairly new black belts- "I don't feel like I'm learning anything new."

I want to slap them in the head and tell them they're not paying attention, but instead I just try to explain how the journey changes and how we need to look into refining what we do know,
take the new techniques we learn and treasure them, and to look into making new discoveries.

Another common problem is that new black belts can't shift the focus away from themselves. As we reach higher levels, our focus is less and less solely on what the art can do for me, and more and more towards a blance between that and what i can do for the art, and for others practicing the art. many people just dont want this responsibility, or dont feel comfortale in that role, and it leads them away.

To me one of the biggest rewards is knowing that the more i put into the art, the more i get back from it. Too many students want to remain passive and have everything handedto them, even at black belt level. I want to say that in my experiences, far more black belts remain and train then quit, but itdoes still happen. These are people that seem to have "goten it", but as the true reality of what being a black belt is an how much training really does change at that point dawns on them, thet don't feel comfortable and leave.

All too often these people become martial arts drifters, floating from one style to another looking to be given some kind of enlightenment. They make black belts in many styles, and become very proficient fighters and technicians, and accrue a lot of knowledge, but inavriably never progress past first degree black belt. eventually many of these artists feel they have enough knowledge and found their own schools or systems.
Some actually find the enlightenment and sucess they were looking for in this as they are now doing something for others, but many are not successful or happy in this either, and some drop ioff the martial arts scene all together.

I hate to be perpetuating a stereotype, but I've seen it happen, both within my style, and through friends in other styles.

maybe it does happen because no one ever gave them other goals, but I feel it happens most often because they just didn't understand or accept the way training changes after black belt.
this should be explained to all students gradually as they advance in rank, but being told and experiencing it are two different things.

 

[tonbo]

Ya know, I *love* that...."I don't feel like I'm learning anything new". Are you KIDDING? Geeez......Black is when you START learning!! All the stuff up to that point was to get you trained on how to learn!!

I would say that I could be considered a "new" Black Belt....I earned mine back in December. However, I am just now starting to see all the cool little details that I had missed previously, and there are a LOT of them. It's like someone just opened up the flood gates and let it fly. Actually, those details were always there, but I was just not seeing them. Now that I am a little more relaxed, I'm starting to see more......

Trouble is, most people are seeing Black rank as an ending point, instead of a starting point. Figures.

Peace--

 

[Shinzu]

i would have to agree with tonbo. the meaning behind the saying is what counts.

you might not be a black belt, or you may never be one... but you will have the black belt attitude. you will hold your head high with respect and honor, no matter rank, sex, or creed.

i believe it portraits a positive attitude to those with a goal in life and in MA.

the saying should not be generally inturputed as everyone here will be black belts (even if they dont deserve it). it is more of we are the best we can be and are proud of what we do and who we are!