The X-Kans

[MJS]

I was thinking about whether or not to ask this question openly or privately, but figured, what the hell...I'll ask here. Hopefully this wont cause too many issues, so here goes.

So many times, on forums, we see the Buj, take alot of heat. People say that the art sucks, its practioners larp, there is no proven lineage, etc, etc. Yet it seems to me anyways, that the Jinenkan and Genbukan, are untouched by this. Now, I'm not saying that they should be taking a beating too. IMHO, I dont feel that any of them should be bashed.

So, what is it, that makes 1 get heat and the other 2 get nothing? Overall quality of the way things are taught? Quality of vids? Quality control as far as ranking goes?

For the record, I dont train in any of the Kans, but I do know people who do, and yes, I've seen some quality vids. Just looking to get an honest question answered folks. Lets not turn this into a bash fest.

 

[yorkshirelad]

I was thinking about whether or not to ask this question openly or privately, but figured, what the hell...I'll ask here. Hopefully this wont cause too many issues, so here goes.

So many times, on forums, we see the Buj, take alot of heat. People say that the art sucks, its practioners larp, there is no proven lineage, etc, etc. Yet it seems to me anyways, that the Jinenkan and Genbukan, are untouched by this. Now, I'm not saying that they should be taking a beating too. IMHO, I dont feel that any of them should be bashed.

So, what is it, that makes 1 get heat and the other 2 get nothing? Overall quality of the way things are taught? Quality of vids? Quality control as far as ranking goes?

For the record, I dont train in any of the Kans, but I do know people who do, and yes, I've seen some quality vids. Just looking to get an honest question answered folks. Lets not turn this into a bash fest.

I am an outsider when it comes to the X-Kans, but it appears to me that in Jinenkan and Genbukan there is qualtiy control. Both Tanemura and Manaka Sensei teach each of the arts that they recieved Menkyo in and vet their students over years, before thos students recieve high Dan rank.
In Bujinkan, although Hatsumi Sensei taught both Manaka and Tanemura Sensei, over the past few decades quality control has not been upheld and people have been promoted to ludicrously high rank, in a short space of time. I personally believe that Hatsumi gave out so many tenth Dans, that he created five more to distinguish the leadership of Bujinkan, and, sadly now has so many 15th Dans that rank in his association is meaningless.
It appears that the Bujinkan has an ad hoc training doctrine. There is no set syllabus and people have been known to recieve tenth Dan through Richard Van Donk's DVD series.
If I were you, I'd find a Jinenkan or Genbukan school and forget the Bujinkan.

 

[MJS]

I am an outsider when it comes to the X-Kans, but it appears to me that in Jinenkan and Genbukan there is qualtiy control. Both Tanemura and Manaka Sensei teach each of the arts that they recieved Menkyo in and vet their students over years, before thos students recieve high Dan rank.
In Bujinkan, although Hatsumi Sensei taught both Manaka and Tanemura Sensei, over the past few decades quality control has not been upheld and people have been promoted to ludicrously high rank, in a short space of time. I personally believe that Hatsumi gave out so many tenth Dans, that he created five more to distinguish the leadership of Bujinkan, and, sadly now has so many 15th Dans that rank in his association is meaningless.
It appears that the Bujinkan has an ad hoc training doctrine. There is no set syllabus and people have been known to recieve tenth Dan through Richard Van Donk's DVD series.
If I were you, I'd find a Jinenkan or Genbukan school and forget the Bujinkan.

Yes, reading up on the Genbukan and Jinenkan sites, it seems that the QC is definately there. Seems the focus is more on really knowing the material, being able to perform it (of course thats the way it should be anyways. ) and less on rank.

As for the schools....there is one Buj dojo, about 20min away from me. Genbukan....I'd have to travel out of state for that. Jinenkan...the drive for 1 class a week, isnt worth it. I wasnt looking to train, as I'm quite happy with what I'm doing now. OTOH, if there were a Genbukan dojo closer, I'd consider it. As for the Buj dojo...I know the inst there, and from what I've seen, he isnt one to pass out rank, which is a good thing.

 

[Kurai]

It appears that the Bujinkan has an ad hoc training doctrine. There is no set syllabus and people have been known to recieve tenth Dan through Richard Van Donk's DVD series.
If I were you, I'd find a Jinenkan or Genbukan school and forget the Bujinkan.

Some Bujinkan dojos do have a set, strict syllabus. As for your statement of 10th Dan via RVD DVD series you are incorrect.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Some Bujinkan dojos do have a set, strict syllabus. As for your statement of 10th Dan via RVD DVD series you are incorrect.

I'm not speaking about individual dojos. I'm speaking about the organisation as a whole. There are many good martial artists in the Bujinkan, but the quality control of the organization is none existant, so it's sometimes difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak.
As for RVD's DVDs, you can buy the set and test for all kyu grades via video camera. Then you can test for shodan only at RVD's dojo. Then you can buy more DVDs for all ranks up to yondan as long as you test for each rank at RVD's dojo, you'll get your rank. He then offers training trips to Noda where you can take the sakki test under Hatsumi. In short, you can grade to godan in five dojo visits. Then you sdon't have to buy anymore DVDs. You can just arrive in Japan with RVD and recieve another Dan rank everytime you go.
The kicker to all this madness is, that Hatsumi will issue all the certs. All kyu and Dan certs come from Hatsumi. It is therefore Hatsumi who is issuing the certs from RVD's DVD course.
You're technically correct though. RVD's DVDs can take you through yondan. Another five trips to Japan will get you a judan. this is the truth pure and simple.
i don't think that Hatsumi cares about Dan rank though. I think he's just playing with people. I really believe that the shihan he values most highly will be or have been issued Menkyo Kaiden and everything else is, well, meaningless.

Take at look at this folks:
http://www.blackbeltcourse.com/
http://nidancourse.ninjutsu.com/
http://sandancourse.ninjutsu.com/
http://shidoshicourse.ninjutsu.com/
http://mastercourse.ninjutsu.com/

 

[Stealthy]

It has always been my opinion that flaming existing schools/teachers has propogated for primarily business related reasons and some students tend to be happy to jump on the band wagon.

Certainly flaming schools for non-business related reasons happens(giving Zen Do Kai a hard time for breeding thugs comes to mind) and those DVD's are just asking for it.

I'd be tempted to watch the dvds above just for ***** and giggles, so long as I don't have to pay for them.

I am curious to know if anyone would do the program though, I mean why go to all that trouble when you know in your heart that you just can't take the grade seriously.

If anyone wants to send me 500 bucks I will post them 2 Chuck Norris movies a Jackie Chan and three Bruce Lee flicks with a genuine Ripped-U-Off-Ryu certificate and black belt.

Lets not turn this into a bash fest.

Where's the fun in that?

 

[Supra Vijai]

From my limited understanding I believe another difference between the 3 is the focus of each school. Manaka Sensei and Tanemura Sensei both teach the traditional ryu-ha within their organisations and the focus is on correct transmission of the art. Hatsumi Sensei however does not take this approach as the Bujinkan do not teach the various ryu-ha of ninjutsu but rather Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (BBT) which is more Hatsumi Sensei's expression of the teachings of the school. While none of the organisations would be considered Koryu, the training methodologies of the Jinenkan and the Genbukan are more in line with traditional teaching styles than the Bujinkan.

From what I've heard Manaka Sensei was THE go to guy for the form/technique side of things and he teaches his students accordingly. Tanemura Sensei similarly has a very strict teaching methodology. Hatsumi Sensei on the other hand loves introducing Henka or variations and is quite famous for his phrase "Understand? Good! Play!" (also the name of one of his books IIRC). When most people with experience and/or serious training looking at the way students of each school moves the difference is apparent. Whilst I myself am not at a level where I can nitpick flaws with any video, I know several people who can and the general opinion seems to be that a lot of the Bujinkan stuff on display is not as "clean" as the others. While that is by no means a measure of the entire organisation and every one of it's practitioners it's unfortunately a apples to apples scenario where you can only draw comparisons between the limited of number of videos available to you and personal experience if applicable.

 

[Supra Vijai]

I'd be tempted to watch the dvds above just for ***** and giggles, so long as I don't have to pay for them.

I have one of the first DVD's of the initial black belt course. To be honest, it's not great IMO purely because of the number of things you don't without having a living, breathing instructor there to correct you and offer advice. Purely for entertainment/curiosity though, I'd say worth a watch if only to see how other instructors approach the same material your school covers

I am curious to know if anyone would do the program though, I mean why go to all that trouble when you know in your heart that you just can't take the grade seriously.

Why not? I mean there are plenty of people around, even on these forums, who insist they can learn a martial art correctly off some books or videos. Some of them even go on to form their own schools and *gasp* teach others their "amazing skills". Sometimes reality is easily neglected when fantasy and desire are strong enough I think.

If anyone wants to send me 500 bucks I will post them 2 Chuck Norris movies a Jackie Chan and three Bruce Lee flicks with a genuine Ripped-U-Off-Ryu certificate and black belt.

I see your movie offer and raise you 3 Van Damme movies and 2 Tony Jaa movies

 

[Stealthy]

there are plenty of people around, even on these forums, who insist they can learn a martial art correctly off some books or videos. Some of them even go on to form their own schools and *gasp* teach others their "amazing skills". Sometimes reality is easily neglected when fantasy and desire are strong enough I think.

I do believe you are correct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[yt]nOMulPMXSZA&feature=related[/yt]

 

[Cryozombie]

I was thinking about whether or not to ask this question openly or privately, but figured, what the hell...I'll ask here. Hopefully this wont cause too many issues, so here goes.

So many times, on forums, we see the Buj, take alot of heat. People say that the art sucks, its practioners larp, there is no proven lineage, etc, etc. Yet it seems to me anyways, that the Jinenkan and Genbukan, are untouched by this. Now, I'm not saying that they should be taking a beating too. IMHO, I dont feel that any of them should be bashed.

So, what is it, that makes 1 get heat and the other 2 get nothing? Overall quality of the way things are taught? Quality of vids? Quality control as far as ranking goes?

For the record, I dont train in any of the Kans, but I do know people who do, and yes, I've seen some quality vids. Just looking to get an honest question answered folks. Lets not turn this into a bash fest.

This is my opinion, FWIW. In short, the Bujinkan is far more widespread and more widely... publicized? Than the other two organizations, which is, IMO why it generates more flak. That, coupled with the “Ninja” thing and the fantasy about what everyone expects a ninja to be as opposed to what it really is leads a lot of people to go “LoL Ninjers, Go Go Power Larpers!”. Well, that and a lack of understanding when watching a video on Youtube and going “ZOMG That’s so much ******** fantasy” when watching Kata demonstrations. I liken that to watching an MMA video of a guy practicing Shrimping back and forth across the floor and going “WTF? Hahaha! Yeah he’s really learning to fight, what a JOKE!” Because it’s a video of a training tool, not the big picture. By the same token, these clowns in the organization who post videos of Kata and are like “Check this out this is the real deal!” are not helping, because they don’t get it either.

There is a lot of truth to the comments about the quality control in the Bujinkan, especially coming from outsiders who don’t get what is going on in the organization, but, the quality IS there if you know what/who to look for, and what and who to avoid. I suspect that the ratio of Good instructors in the Buj, the Jinekan, and Genbukan are probably pretty close, but the Buj has a lot more Chaff because Hatsumi will cater to the paper tigers, and the other organization will not; They have a “Do A, B, C, do not Vary from this at all!” Attitude when teaching, where in the bujinkan, the kata and such are there and meant to teach the movement ideas; but the concept of the art is not about the techniques but rather using proper timing, distance and space control to overcome your opponent… so that a technique may not be appropriate or necessary, depending on your opponents response. THE PROBLEM (as I perceive it) is that a lot of guys, high ranking guys, and even guys with GREAT abilities, go to Japan, see what Hatsumi is doing, and then turn around and go “NO! That isn’t what Hatsumi is teaching! Do it like this! Parrot Him! Do nothing else!” and then we have generations of new students with no grasp on the basics of Kihon Happo, Sanshin, and the basic Kata that are in each Ryu’s scrolls. Why? I personally think it’s Because Hatsumi and his guys drilled that stuff years and years ago, and their level of training is so far beyond that that it isn’t what they are teaching anymore; that is left for the students individual instructors to do, and so many of them aren’t doing that because they are stuck in Japan Elite mode, and just don’t get it.

 

[jks9199]

THE PROBLEM (as I perceive it) is that a lot of guys, high ranking guys, and even guys with GREAT abilities, go to Japan, see what Hatsumi is doing, and then turn around and go “NO! That isn’t what Hatsumi is teaching! Do it like this! Parrot Him! Do nothing else!” and then we have generations of new students with no grasp on the basics of Kihon Happo, Sanshin, and the basic Kata that are in each Ryu’s scrolls. Why? I personally think it’s Because Hatsumi and his guys drilled that stuff years and years ago, and their level of training is so far beyond that that it isn’t what they are teaching anymore; that is left for the students individual instructors to do, and so many of them aren’t doing that because they are stuck in Japan Elite mode, and just don’t get it.

As an outsider looking in -- I agree. In the videos I've seen of Hatsumi teaching -- especially more recent ones -- it's clear he's not teaching for beginners. He's teaching for the handful of people in the dojo who are far enough along to catch his lesson. The rest? They'll get something, and if they put the time into internalizing and drilling and practicing their basics, it'll click one day and they'll suddenly understand something. But, by and large, he's not worrying about them when he teaches. That's why his teaching is so centered on concepts and principles, rather than specific techniques. He's trained a group of teachers that can cover the basics. But what he gets showing up at the hombu dojo is everyone after their "Hatsumi class experience" even if they barely know the beginnings of ukemi to train.

 

[Aiki Lee]

+1 to Cryo for a well informed post

You can find poor practitioners of anything on Youtube, but since Bujinkan is a larger organization they have more people and that means more videos of poor training from those who don't grasp what they should be doing. In the Banzenkan organization I find myself being quite concerned about the quality of video we post because the more examples of low quality that exist, the higher the chance that outsiders won't take what you do seriously.

 

[Chris Parker]

There is a lot of truth to the comments about the quality control in the Bujinkan, especially coming from outsiders who don’t get what is going on in the organization, but, the quality IS there if you know what/who to look for, and what and who to avoid. I suspect that the ratio of Good instructors in the Buj, the Jinekan, and Genbukan are probably pretty close, but the Buj has a lot more Chaff because Hatsumi will cater to the paper tigers, and the other organization will not; They have a “Do A, B, C, do not Vary from this at all!” Attitude when teaching, where in the bujinkan, the kata and such are there and meant to teach the movement ideas; but the concept of the art is not about the techniques but rather using proper timing, distance and space control to overcome your opponent… so that a technique may not be appropriate or necessary, depending on your opponents response.

Hey Cryo,

I've been purposefully staying out of this one, and I've sent my thoughts to MJS about it, but one thing I will say is on the concept of quality control. Honestly, my friend, the idea of there being an issue in the Bujinkan is not so much about whether there is any quality to be found in the organisation (I think it's pretty obvious that there is, starting with Hatsumi down), the issue is one of quality control. In other words, is the level of quality uniform across the board for a similar ranked person. And in the Bujinkan, the answer is no. And that has nothing to do with the size of the organisation, at least not in the direction suggested. Honestly, the Bujinkan may be big due to lack of quality control (Chris Carbonaro reaching his 10th Dan + in about 8 years or so from white belt, and spawning 5th Dan's plus of his own since comes to mind), it doesn't have a lack of quality control due to it's size.

And, honestly, the Jinenkan/Genbukan approach of learning things exactly ("A-B-C" method) is one very good way of maintaining quality across the board. The Bujinkan free form methods are best used after such A-B-C training has been used to develop skill. As an instructor, it's certainly something I aspire to.

 

[MJS]

Hey Cryo,

I've been purposefully staying out of this one, and I've sent my thoughts to MJS about it, but one thing I will say is on the concept of quality control. Honestly, my friend, the idea of there being an issue in the Bujinkan is not so much about whether there is any quality to be found in the organisation (I think it's pretty obvious that there is, starting with Hatsumi down), the issue is one of quality control. In other words, is the level of quality uniform across the board for a similar ranked person. And in the Bujinkan, the answer is no. And that has nothing to do with the size of the organisation, at least not in the direction suggested. Honestly, the Bujinkan may be big due to lack of quality control (Chris Carbonaro reaching his 10th Dan + in about 8 years or so from white belt, and spawning 5th Dan's plus of his own since comes to mind), it doesn't have a lack of quality control due to it's size.

And, honestly, the Jinenkan/Genbukan approach of learning things exactly ("A-B-C" method) is one very good way of maintaining quality across the board. The Bujinkan free form methods are best used after such A-B-C training has been used to develop skill. As an instructor, it's certainly something I aspire to.

Its interesting that you mention that, because I see the same thing in Kenpo. I learned things from my teacher, thus passing the same onto people that I teach. Yet many times, I've had discussion with other BB's, about a technique or form/kata, because they see me doing something different.

The problem lies here....instead of keeping things across the board, they'd just go ahead and make a change, perhaps because they couldn't make it work, etc. Now, yes, there are things that I can't make work, without making a change. Even if I'm teaching a tech, that I hate, would never use, etc, I still teach it. Afterall, just because I can't, doesnt mean someone else wont have an easier time. So, after I teach it, I'll show them how I do it, subtle changes that I've made for myself. I'm not saying that my way is *the* way, just another option.

But, its hard to maintain quality and have everyone on the same page, if student A works with teachers 1,2,3,and 4, and then me, teacher 5 comes along, and they say, "Well, 1 told me to do it this way, 3 said this, but 2 said thats wrong, 4 told me this way, and now you're saying this." LOL...you can see how the confusion runs high. LOL.

I think alot of people are trying to sprint, before they learn how to run, let alone walk. LOL.

 

[gregtca]

Gee this quality issue is never ending, back in the 80's it started, and here we are 30 years later , although i would think with a "new Batch" of ppl , hearing the same things about - quality. As Soke has said many times, he handed out rank to anyone that asked for it , for many reasons , but he's also said many times , its up to you , the student to find the diamond among the ruffage, or as some others have said , if you are ment to find a good instructor - you will , anyway i will just copy this and keep it for the next quality forum in the next 20 - 30 years

Greg

ps just enjoy training and the rest will follow - if its ment to be , lol

 

[MJS]

Gee this quality issue is never ending, back in the 80's it started, and here we are 30 years later , although i would think with a "new Batch" of ppl , hearing the same things about - quality. As Soke has said many times, he handed out rank to anyone that asked for it , for many reasons , but he's also said many times , its up to you , the student to find the diamond among the ruffage, or as some others have said , if you are ment to find a good instructor - you will , anyway i will just copy this and keep it for the next quality forum in the next 20 - 30 years

Greg

ps just enjoy training and the rest will follow - if its ment to be , lol

Well, that is the issue right there....

the problem is, is that people probably are not seeking the diamond and just taking the rank, thus why so much flack is given. Of course, if its really been going on as long as you claim, one should ask themselves....why is this happening and is there anything that should be done to fix it?

And btw, if you're not happy with the forum or the topic, why are you posting? I ask this since you dont seem to have much to offer as far as the topic goes.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Well, that is the issue right there....

the problem is, is that people probably are not seeking the diamond and just taking the rank, thus why so much flack is given. Of course, if its really been going on as long as you claim, one should ask themselves....why is this happening and is there anything that should be done to fix it?

And btw, if you're not happy with the forum or the topic, why are you posting? I ask this since you dont seem to have much to offer as far as the topic goes.

I don't know Hatsumi Sensei, but it seems to me that that he views the ranks he gives in the Bujinkan as meaningless.
I would like to know, how many of the Jugodans out there have Menkyo Kaiden in the various ryuha. We know that Manaka Sensei, and Tanemura Sensei both got Menkyo Kaiden from Hatsumi Sensei in at least some of the ryuha.
I get the feeling that there are many Shihan who consider themselves equals to some of the senior Japanese Shihan, but are unaware of the paperwork that the Japanese Shihan have.
I really do think that rank in the Bujinkan is a head fake. I think that when the Bujinkan passes to the next inheritor, many people are going to be in for a shock!

 

[EWBell]

I don't know Hatsumi Sensei, but it seems to me that that he views the ranks he gives in the Bujinkan as meaningless.
I would like to know, how many of the Jugodans out there have Menkyo Kaiden in the various ryuha. We know that Manaka Sensei, and Tanemura Sensei both got Menkyo Kaiden from Hatsumi Sensei in at least some of the ryuha.
I get the feeling that there are many Shihan who consider themselves equals to some of the senior Japanese Shihan, but are unaware of the paperwork that the Japanese Shihan have.
I really do think that rank in the Bujinkan is a head fake. I think that when the Bujinkan passes to the next inheritor, many people are going to be in for a shock!

I don't believe any non-Japanese shihan have menkyo kaiden in any of the individual ryu-ha, which should tell you all you need to know.

 

[gregtca]

To mjs
"Well, that is the issue right there...."And btw, if you're not happy with the forum or the topic, why are you posting? I ask this since you dont seem to have much to offer as far as the topic goes.

Im sorry for upsetting you, yes its an old problem , basically poeple have there own agenda's , ego , to be better in there own eyes then someone else, human nature at its lowest level - imho.

I remember 20yolds 5th dans - what a laugh -joke, you see the organisation hadto get big / grow way back then , so rank was given in the japanese way - meaning you got it , so prove to the world / yourself that you are that standard - what ever that was, now thats fine for a japanese person , not good for westerners who didnt really understand it.

So there is the initail issue , ppl took rank for ego etc, imho, but as they say , some ppl cant handle the truth, so they make their own up.

But though all this , there have been some honest ppl who are excellent at this art , you just need to find them ,

oh and who said im not happy with the forum , it is a great place to see what other ppl are doing / thinking , sharing ,

anyway bw to all

greg

 

[MJS]

To mjs
"Well, that is the issue right there...."And btw, if you're not happy with the forum or the topic, why are you posting? I ask this since you dont seem to have much to offer as far as the topic goes.

Im sorry for upsetting you, yes its an old problem , basically poeple have there own agenda's , ego , to be better in there own eyes then someone else, human nature at its lowest level - imho.

I remember 20yolds 5th dans - what a laugh -joke, you see the organisation hadto get big / grow way back then , so rank was given in the japanese way - meaning you got it , so prove to the world / yourself that you are that standard - what ever that was, now thats fine for a japanese person , not good for westerners who didnt really understand it.

So there is the initail issue , ppl took rank for ego etc, imho, but as they say , some ppl cant handle the truth, so they make their own up.

But though all this , there have been some honest ppl who are excellent at this art , you just need to find them ,

oh and who said im not happy with the forum , it is a great place to see what other ppl are doing / thinking , sharing ,

anyway bw to all

greg

I'm not upset at all. I apologize if I misread your post.