The Wing Chun fighting stance explained

Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by DaveB, Dec 7, 2018.

  1. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,391
    Likes Received:
    1,843
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    This is the problem when people only look MA from his own MA style point of view.

    - WC guys fight against WC guys.
    - TKD guys fight against TKD guys.
    - Wrestlers fight against wrestlers.
    - Judo guys fight against Judo guys.
    - ...

    The chance that you will have to fight against someone from your own school is very small.

    When we discuss grabbing, Taiji guys may say that they don't grab. Since their opponent may grab on them, they still have to train how to deal with it.

    The problem is if your teacher only has trained one MA system, how will he be able to teach you dealing with other MA systems?
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    16,888
    Likes Received:
    4,037
    Trophy Points:
    308
    You are either basing it on something or basing it on nothing.

    People who compete are more capable than those who don't.

    It is a system that works.
     
  3. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    6,674
    Likes Received:
    1,936
    Trophy Points:
    263
    This only works if you don't punch. If you punch with that hand then you give up that ability to do this.
    My comment is in reference into the opportunity for someone to put me in at head lock. Also hooks don't travel horizontally. If you get a diagonal hook that comes at an angle then you won't have that opportunity.
     
  4. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,391
    Likes Received:
    1,843
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    Agree! to fully test the

    - "anti-grappling", you have to find a good grappler.
    - "anti-striking", you have to find a good striker.

    People said that when you test

    - "anti-grappling", you have to mimic a good grappler.
    - "anti-striking", you have to mimic a good striker.

    But IMO, if you can mimic a good grappler (or striker), you are already a good grappler (or striker).

    Can you mimic yourself as float like a butterfly, sting like a bee? I truly don't think I can.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    6,674
    Likes Received:
    1,936
    Trophy Points:
    263
    yep. it's a common mistake.

    This looks like a bee, but it will never attack like a bee and it will never have a bee's strategy
    [​IMG]

    This is a bee, so if you have to test something that will be used deal with a bee attack then. You gotta find the real thing. It may not be the most skilled bee in the hive, but it's still a bee. If I want to test my skills against a grappler then I need to find a grappler. But so may school do like you stated. Mimic.
    [​IMG][/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
     
  6. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,391
    Likes Received:
    1,843
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    The following clip is similar to the WC

    - left Tan Shou with right punch, followed by
    - right Tan Shou with left punch.

    - Your opponent uses right hook punch at you.
    - You use left hand to block his right punching arm, use right hand to push on his right shoulder. (This is similar to WC Left Tan Shou with right face punch).
    - This will let your right side door complete open.
    - When your opponent uses left hook punch at your right, you use right arm to wrap his left arm (This is similar to WC right Tan Shou with left face punch), and ...

    What do you think about the successful rate of this move? Do you think this training has any combat value?

     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    20,809
    Likes Received:
    6,084
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Not completely competing is not équivalent to basing it on nothing.

    People who are going to compete probably typically push themselves to a higher level of functional competence. That certainly seems true of some forms of competition.
     
  8. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    6,674
    Likes Received:
    1,936
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Do be honest I have no idea. Maybe against a long hook hook that is similar to what is shown, but a shorter hook will probably get through. The problem with hooks is that they can be like a pick axe
    [​IMG]
    Even if you block the arm of the pick axe you will still get the metal. Hook punches are like this. If the hook is long then that will be you best choice for trying that move. I also know know what is the follow up move when the person tries to back out. For example, if a person feels that their arm is caught then their natural reaction may be to duck and pull backwards in order to free their arm. If that happens then it may take away your opportunity to grab the head.

    Hard to say you would have to try it with a variety of hook punches.
     
  9. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    26,025
    Likes Received:
    4,140
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    England
    [/QUOTE][/QUOTE]


    Neither of them are bees, the one you said was a bee is a wasp.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  10. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    6,674
    Likes Received:
    1,936
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Tez corrects me once again. Change Bee to Wasp
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 24, 2018
  11. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,035
    Likes Received:
    718
    Trophy Points:
    263
    That's sort of my point; WC is supposedly designed to deal with these situations and it has failed in that purpose consistently. What does that say about the system in question's strengths are actually glaring weaknesses.
     
  12. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    6,674
    Likes Received:
    1,936
    Trophy Points:
    263
    I think what you are talking about is an exaggeration of Wing Chun fans and not the reality of it. You have to separate the two. Even professional fighters sometimes have difficulty in getting on the inside. I've sparred and have had real street fights against someone with longer limbs and I don't ever remember it being easy. I also remember understanding clearly the disadvantage I was in. There was not magic bullet, to get me inside. Just a lot of footwork.

    The only real problem with Wing Chun is with the students who make the assumptions that an opponent is going to punch like Wing Chun Class mates. If you are a Wing Chun student, non wing chun students don't spar like this.


    If you are a Wing Chun Student then this is what you have to be able to apply your Wing Chun to.


    It's not the system. It's the student in the second video is getting better Wing Chun application training.

    In terms of fighting someone with a longer reach. I've been unfortunate to be smaller than most people I spar against, since starting martial arts so I had no choice but to learn. But this isn't the norm for most people. Most schools wouldn't even match up students with that much of a disadvantage as what they Wing Chun guy had with reach.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    20,809
    Likes Received:
    6,084
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I don't have any experience with WC to draw from, but what I've seen looks like it could work as part of a complete package. I don't know if some styles of WC have that complete package.

    It's probably less efficient than a boxing approach, but "less effective" isn't the same as "ineffective". I'd need to experience sparring with some WC folks to get a better feel. I missed one of my chances when one of our MT brethern was in the area this year - we got into discussing and playing with other areas and never got around to sparring.
     
  14. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,391
    Likes Received:
    1,843
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    WC is a CMA system. All CMA has both striking art and grappling art. Boxing is a 100% striking art. Should a WC guy think about how to use his grappling skill to deal with his opponent's striking skill?

    Should a WC guy think about how to obtain a clinch instead of thinking about how to exchange punches with his boxer opponent?

    For example, to use WC

    - Tan Shou to set up arm wrap. The left Tan Shou and right punch, right Tan Shou and left punch is a good combo to be used in the grappling art.
    - Fu Shou to set up a reverse head lock (guillotine).
    - Bon Shou to hide your head during clinch.
    - ...

    IMO, the future direction of the WC system is not to move toward 100% striking art but to enhance the grappling art within the WC system. The same logic should also apply to the other CMA systems such as Taiji, XingYi, long fist, preying mantis, Baji, ...
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  15. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    16,888
    Likes Received:
    4,037
    Trophy Points:
    308
    It requires a certain type of fighter as well. Which is the bit I don't like.

    Mike Tyson pressure fights so therefore I can.

    I mean that sounds right doesn't it?



    One of the other issues there is people look at fighters like Tyson and think that is just an awesome way to bash a guy. Who would want to be a boring counter fighter?

    But to actually do it is a different story.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,391
    Likes Received:
    1,843
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    IMO, WC is not the only MA system that may have problem to deal with boxing. Almost all CMA systems also have this problem.

    We should use kicking and grappling to deal with boxing. We should not use punching to deal with boxing.

     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    20,809
    Likes Received:
    6,084
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    One of my instructors was a golden gloves boxer before he got into JMA, and had to use his ability as a LEO (as an aside, he also taught DT). He often said, "If they want to box, I'll grapple. If they want to grapple, I'll box." This, from a guy who in his mid-60's was still stepping into the ring with new academy trainees to show he could out-box them.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. wtxs

    wtxs Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2010
    Messages:
    478
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    43

    The mighty Grandmaster Hendrix;):p. Wish you all a joyous holiday!
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  19. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2014
    Messages:
    3,628
    Likes Received:
    974
    Trophy Points:
    263
    In general, IMO western boxing is the pinnacle of development in striking arts. So you learn to play their game if you want to be successful striking with them, or you don't play their game at all....as John notes. Put a good Boxer against a good Wing Chun guy (or any TCMA) and they both have the same amount of training, and I'll put my money on the Boxer every time.
     
  20. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    26,025
    Likes Received:
    4,140
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    England
    Both bees and wasps are very useful creatures, there are many different species of both however due to actions of certain governments ( and Presidents) bees may die out and then we are going to be very very sorry. Wasps are also useful though people seem to hate them.
    [​IMG]
     

Share This Page