The style debate

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by AceVentura, Jul 25, 2020.

  1. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Brown Belt

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    One can get too enthralled in details. There are indeed enough of them to last a lifetime of study in the quest for perfection. But it is easy to get lost in the forest. I've seen movies directed (often by the starring actor who is very self-absorbed, as actors are prone to be) that are simply overdone and overlong. I've read books, that while are technically very well written, are so detailed that one loses track of the plot. I think that this can also occur in MA.

    The best painters know when to stop painting. Sumi-e, Japanese brush painting, uses just a few bold strokes to create a thing of beauty. Haiku uses just seventeen syllables to create a poem that can speak to the soul. So, while details are needed to make a technique work to its fullest potential, anything can be overdone. Once in combat, many details fall by the wayside, anyway. A strong fighting spirit can equal a dozen minute details. Again, I'm not knocking details - they are often important, but I tend not to get overly concerned with them.
     
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  2. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    Clearly, given it was the only one scheldued for the year. So you were expected to fend off a attacker using 3 techniques. God help you if they deviate. Id have more luck keeping a 40 tonne weight on a rigging system handy.

    Edit: i will give it one credit though, it made me realise i prefer doing that sort of thing, than just punching and kicking the air.
     
  3. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    If only there were 48 hours in a day. Maybe then we could learn something.
    And even have time for brunch now and again!
     
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  4. Gweilo

    Gweilo Master Black Belt

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    No, my point was, everthing we have been taught is a stylised technique, trained to be precise, having trained in 3 different arts for some 35 years, the more you learn about for example using a knife, the more you recognise these movements, the better your chance of defending yourself. Martial arts have become so stylised, most movements apart from elite practiitioners is recognisable in its very beginnings. The way to combat this is by dropping the style and moving more naturally, discuising your counters or strikes within your movement. Lets say for arguments sake, you come up against a boxer, their imediate action is to form a boxing stance,none foot slightly infront of the other, arms raised, the intension to interact is clear, yes it changes from what we have been taught, but a TKD exponent, moves different to a boxer, which is different to a Judoka, your training can be a tell, moving naturally, and discuising your intentions within natural movement, gives you angles that are not exspected, gives you opportunities, that you dont have in stylised regimented movement. Once you uneerstand the biomechanics of movement, especially stylised movement, its far more readable, yes you can feint, change angles, but the body moves slightly different in a feint and a full execution.
     
  5. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    That's awesome, bro. The difficulty I always try to manage is teaching the kids how to first bob and weave and slip punches, then to incorporate those into how they Martially spar - specifically, not falling back into a semi side stance that they all seem to want to do when they're trying not to get hit.

    And teaching them to use more bending of the legs than bending at the waist, and keeping their face line behind their toes.

    We used to do this a lot. Had ropes going all over across the dojo. Everyone really liked doing it, too.



    I found what worked best for us, was to do a solid few weeks just doing the boxing drills. And I'd have them always wearing their safety-kick while doing that. Then, in the middle of boxing each other, I'd have them switch straight into Martial Spring. Then back again. I found that by doing that back and forth, they integrated them easier.

    The other thing I'd do is occasionally yell while they were boxing "Sweeps now allowed!! They always loved that.
     
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  6. Gweilo

    Gweilo Master Black Belt

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    Wooho 8 pages
     
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  7. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    The day that you don't dodge a punch, the day that you will fight more aggressively.

    - Your opponent throws a left jab (your opponent sends a missile).
    - Your throw a right curved jab at the same time (you send out anti-missile).

    Your right curved jab go over your opponent's arm, press his left arm down, your right punch then land on his face. Even if your 1st curved jab may only function as to knock your opponent's jab down, your 2nd curved jab can still land on his head (similar to a right low hook, followed by a right high hook).
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
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  8. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    I do that as well. But, John, really, there's nothing that's going to make me fight more aggressively in private life. Less so while on the job, have to be semi nice to the bad guys because...well, you know.

    If you don't want to dodge or slip punches, more power to you. I like making folks miss.
     
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  9. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I think wrestling is the best tool for this.

    The biggest problem is If you change levels and break at the hip in boxing you really will get away with it for a good degree so it is reinforced.

    If you change levels and break at the hip in wrestling you get head snapped.
     
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  10. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ok. Let's try this really simply.

    The most complicated element of boxing is ring craft. And included in this is exploring individual games.



    So like chess you have a finite number of moves. You then have universal strategies and you then have individual gambits.

    And that is where things get complicated. Because individual gambits don't just work. They work depending on the other person's individual gambits.

    And so to be any good you not only have to have expertise in the finite moves and basic strategies you have to have knowledge of how individual elite level fighters apply their methods.

    Which is why I can show break downs of fighters like Maywhether or lomenchenco. But you would struggle to find that level of detail in a lot of other systems.

    This is a by product of high level competition. Because it is the difference between winning a million dollars and loosing.

    Everyone at high levels can box. They are all fit, they are all tough, they all know the basic strategies to be successful.

    The thing that separates them is their ability to manipulate their game and their oponants game.

    And that is a level of complexity that I don't think you do.
     
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  11. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    You mean none of you headbutt the punches in a attempt to break their knuckles? I am shocked.
     
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  12. Saheim

    Saheim Green Belt

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    I've said before- Arts don't fight each other, people do.

    Take a 20yr that looks like he should be an underwear model and runs 5 mi every day before he trains in (insert art here) for 2 -3 hours. He also spars hard at least once a week. Now take a 40yr old hobbyist who occasionally skips class to watch football and enjoy a few beers. Regardless of what they each train, my money is on the MACHINE.

    Also, ive come to look at MA like religion - each one has genuine pieces of truth...... and its share of nonsense. In both (MA and religion), I think one is more likely to find what they're looking for by studying several flavors :)
     
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  13. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    What about a 20 year old who looks like an underwear model, trains in Tae Bo, doesn't spar at all, and LARPs on the weekends with his friends in the park. Versus a 40 year old hobbyist who boxed in his youth, has a dad bod, and trains three days per week in an average BJJ or MMA gym sparring as much as his bad knees will allow?

    My money's on "dad bod" all day long, precisely because of where he trains.
     
  14. Saheim

    Saheim Green Belt

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    Agreed. Unless they're fighting with medieval weapons. There's "Larp" and then there are sects that str8 get down to biz with mace an shield or double sword or wtvr their chosen gear is. Those guys ain't playing.
     
  15. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    LOL. Totally. If someone is coming at me with a mace, I don't care if he has a pony tail and a double chin.

    The point, though, is that the argument "it's not the art; it's the fighter", is bunk. It disregards the importance of developing practical skills and creates a situation where any success is due to the art and any failure is because the student is lacking something. "Too bad you got mugged. You just need MORE ninja training and to cultivate your fighting spirit." Come on.
     
  16. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    A 20 years old may knock out a 70 years old boxer. But a 20 years old will never be able to take down a 70 years old wrestler.

    You need power, speed, and luck to knock down your opponent. But you need skill to take down your opponent.

    In the wrestling art, the art matter. The people don't.
     
  17. Acronym

    Acronym 2nd Black Belt

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    Style is a subsystem of an art. What you really mean is that no art is inferior to any else, which I disagree with.
     
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  18. TKD Eagle

    TKD Eagle Yellow Belt

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    That's because they're professional fighters who compete for millions of dollars. That's not boxing being complex in and of itself, that's professional fighting.

    You could have the same setup with almost any martial art. If the winner of a Taekwondo tournament got $20 million, you can bet that the level of performance in that sport would skyrocket.
     
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  19. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    How would that elevate the level of performance over, say, that of elite level Olympic athletes? I mean, the prize money would be significant, but wouldn't the same elite level athletes compete? Or do you mean that better athletes than currently exist in TKD would take the sport up?

    I guess I don't follow your logic here.
     
  20. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    I think this is true, but more because some styles have baked in a flawed training model that avoids any kind of application. The techniques at that point aren't the issue. It's the culture of incompetence. Like an electrician's guild that strings yarn instead of electrical cabling. All styles benefit from application, and absent application, all styles will atrophy within a generation. We see it happening in front of our eyes, all the time.123
     

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