The style debate

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by AceVentura, Jul 25, 2020.

  1. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    Wording seems off. Because if a biped can do something, it means the body can do it. The body alters to the enviroment and conditions you give it.

    If your body was incapable of doing something, no amount of training would change that. Like dogs cant look up. (thats a joke before anyone gets too annoyed.) The above is closer to, "we didnt know we could train ourselves to do it" not "our body is incapable of doing it". And anything humans cant do illudes me at the moment, not breathing under water and such like that doesnt seem very releivent or apt. Maybe 360 degree head turning.


    Actually you know you have far too much time on your hands if you are able to devolope a high technical skill for mortal combat anyway. :p
     
  2. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Senior Master

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    Hahaha.. the estimate of how long this thread will run before it gets locked down...

    Or your post length before you edited it?

    XD
     
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  3. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    You're confusing correct technique with strategy. We teach a lot of techniques in this way and give people a big variety of techniques to use.

    If all we taught were roundhouse kicks, then your point would make sense.
     
  4. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Focus your chi for only $66... sorry guys. Women only.
    At some point, if stylized movement is intrinsic to the human condition, can we not safely conclude we are made for it? There is evidence of humans dancing and performing rituals as early as 9,000 years ago.
     
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  5. Gweilo

    Gweilo Master Black Belt

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    No the roundhouse was an example, hence the wording, for example before it, I was not talking about stratergy, lets try it another way, do you agree that there are subtle differences in the way students move in, FOR EXAMPLE, a roundhouse kick, between a practioner of TKD and a form of Karate.
     
  6. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    One, eww. Two,males can almosr certainly use that. and thats all i have to say on that subject.

    (bemusingly enough i think it can be used to stregnthen your pelvic floor muslces or something)
     
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  7. Gweilo

    Gweilo Master Black Belt

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    Not intrinsic, but taught/learnt, dances from say the Pacific islands, is fundamentally different from African dances, even though its dancing.
     
  8. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    LOL, men certainly can, but it won't help them with their chi.
     
  9. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    We're taught to walk, read, not chew with our mouths open, drive cars. I'm failing to understand the point here.

    If your point is that we weren't "made" to do anything that we have to learn, I disagree and think that there is ample evidence to the contrary. Regular people learn to do the axe kick all the time without any permanent damage.

    Now, to your point, there are things we weren't made to do. Flying, for example. If you were to jump out of a 10th story window, things would go very poorly for you. Regardless of your training, without technology, your chances of survival are effectively nil. Unlike a squirrel, we have no natural way to manage our terminal velocity to avoid damage. While it might be fair to say we were built to fall, we weren't built to fly... or land.
     
  10. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    Looking at the mechanics of kicks, I think the front kick, in all it's various forms, might be he only kick that's "natural" to the way our bodies move. Other than lying on our back and kicking the legs like we did as babies.
     
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  11. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    Yeah, and maybe low stomping side kicks. Like what even our most distant ancestors might have used to break kindling or to chimney up a split rock to get bird's eggs, etc.

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I would put a back kick into that category as well, at least if not done too high. I think anything that raises the leg sideways to any significant degree, becomes less optimal for how the leg and hip is built.
     
  13. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Just so I'm tracking the premise here. Are we saying that the only things that are "natural" to the way our bodies move are the things we do out of instinct or were done by our ancestors? So, thinking this through, walking would be natural, but swimming is "unnatural." Right?
     
  14. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Okay. Here's a different test. So, we have two "tests" for whether something is natural.

    First is the ancestor/instinct test. If you do it by instinct or if it's something our distant ancestors did, it's "natural."

    Test two is the biomechanics test. If the action is not optimal for how the body parts involve are "built", than it not natural.

    What would we do if the action is sub optimal from a bio mechanics standpoint, but it's instinctive? Which takes precedent?
     
  15. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    - The TKD head kick is to let your leg to do your hand job.
    - The wrestling double legs is to let your hands to do your leg job.

    Both are unnatural. The most natural way is to:

    - let your hand to do your hand job, and
    - let your leg to do your leg job.

    The reason is simple.

    - Your leg is closer to your opponent's leg, and
    - Your hand is closer to your opponent's head.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2020
  16. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    What makes something a hand job? Sorry... I can’t post that without giggling like a teenager.

    Take two: if it was strictly the case that lower body is used for jobs below the waist and upper body for jobs above the waist, why do we bend so well in the middle? I mean, if true, wouldn’t we naturally avoid bending over to pick things up with our hands? Seems like we would instead have evolved to pass things from our feet to our hands.

    another question. Are we conflating intuition with “natural?” I.e., if something is intuitive it is natural, and conversely, if something is not intuitive, it is therefore unnatural?
     
  17. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    If you need to use your hand to pick up your opponent's leg, you can use your leg to do the 1st part of the work, your hand then take over and do the 2nd part of the work. The advantage of this is you don't need to bend over too low.

    Without level change and with level change, which one is safer and easier?

    Without level change - you have more control on your opponent's arm. Your head is not exposed.

    [​IMG]

    With level change - you don't have control on your opponent's arms. Your head is exposed.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Thanks. That actually makes sense. I just don't know if I'd call that "unnatural." Unwise maybe. Possibly less efficient.
     
  19. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Those 2 clips can be a good example for "style debate".

    A: Your style single leg require "level change". It will expose your head for your opponent's punch.
    B: Your style single leg requires "leg skill". It can be weak for your balance.

    It's just trade off.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2020
  20. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    I struggle to find the relevance of this question. Yes, we teach the same roundhouse kick to everyone. How they use it is up to them.

    Boxing is the simplest martial art. It's only punches. Yet Tyson, Ali, Maywhether, Lomachenko, they all have different styles. If what you are saying is correct, then all of them would be carbon copies of each other, because they're all boxers.

    Yet, if you learn boxing, you learn all of the same fundamentals. The same footwork and techniques as all of the other boxers. It doesn't mean everyone has the same style or strategy.123
     

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