The Siu Baat Qua foot Work Form

Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by futsaowingchun, Nov 13, 2020.

  1. futsaowingchun

    futsaowingchun Brown Belt

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    This is Buddha Hand Wing Chun's 4th form called Sui Baat Qua, or the little octagon. This form is an advanced footwork form taught to senior advance student in the Fut Sao or Buddha Hand Wing Chun system. This form is revealed for the first time to the general public for educational purposes and for posterity. There is a total of 8 sections this the first section.

    The foot work patter is as follows step clockwise 180 degrees the back 180 degrees, then step clock wise 90 degrees then 180 degrees then back.. repeat this 4x then repeat the whole thing counter clockwise..

    It's a lot easier to under the form by watching it then me trying to explain it... But anyway, am not much of a forms person but in the Wing Chun world very few people know about this one and I believe this is the first time its been made available on video.. I hope to generate some interest and have a discussion about and go into more detail if anyone is interested...oh BTW I've been gone a long time.. but am back..


     
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  2. yak sao

    yak sao Senior Master

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    Welcome back.
    I read about this form several years ago and have always been curious about it.

    Thanks for sharing.
     
  3. yak sao

    yak sao Senior Master

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    In the interest of discussion, I heard that Leung Jan eliminated this form from his curriculum in an effort to simplify his wing chun because the movements were already contained in the dummy set.

    From seeing the first section of the form this seems to be true as these movement's are in Yip Man's dummy set.

    Is that true of the entire form or are there nuggets of info unique to this form?

    Again, thanks for putting that out there.
     
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  4. wckf92

    wckf92 Master Black Belt

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    Agree with @yak sao about this being in Yip Man wc. Between the footwork in the dummy sets, weapons, and tri-poles...its all there. Thanks for sharing the video!
     
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  5. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    My question is, why is this form taught to advanced students and not to beginners? Footwork is foundational material and, in my opinion, should be taught from an early stage in training. Any drill or form or exercise that effectively teaches and develops those skills ought to be introduced early and ought to be a consistent staple of training forever.

    In addition, I didn’t see anything in that clip that struck me as complex or difficult, that a beginner (not day one, of course, but inside of six months or a year) couldn’t learn.
     
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  6. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    This is just my opinion as an outsider, but the way I see it, it is always a good idea to train drills and exercises that focus on a particular skillset, even if those skills are found elsewhere in the system.

    As an example, which I realize isn’t a perfect comparison, but perhaps you can humor me for the sake of the discussion, I spend a lot of time drilling my fundamental punches in a variety of ways, even though those punches are found in my forms. I spend a lot more time working on those fundamentals in isolation or short drills and combinations, than I do practicing my forms. If I only did my forms with the logic that “everything” is found in the forms, I would have a lot less repetition and my skill with all of those techniques would be significantly reduced.

    My point being: techniques are found in multiple places within a system, this reinforces the practice of the system, so why eliminate something that is a focused drill? Wing chun is a system with a fairly small formalized curriculum. Does it need to be further streamlined?
     
  7. futsaowingchun

    futsaowingchun Brown Belt

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    There are 7 more sections or qua's each one is different ...I don't know if the story of the Leung Jan shorting the curriculum is true of not.. I would say IMO that the circular foot work is in your dummy and also knife form,but in your dummy your not able to walk around 180 degree due to its a dead dummy..You need to walk around it 360 degree.. The latter qua's deal with multi persons so position is stressed.
     
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  8. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    Thank you for sharing.
    Of what was shown; I learned not from Forms but through footwork drills and partner drills.
     
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  9. futsaowingchun

    futsaowingchun Brown Belt

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    this form is learnt later on in your training.. In the Buddha Hand lineage the curriculum is as follows, Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, Bil Tze, then Siu Baat Qwa, Then Dummy, Then weapons..The basic foot work you learn in the first and second form is more fundamental and critical then the Siu Baat Qwa IMO but also important as well but not necessary to be functional at Wing Chun.. I use the word advance not meaning harder to do but not meant for the novice..
     
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  10. yak sao

    yak sao Senior Master

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    Yeah, while the application of the scissors step has us going behind our opponent, the dummy configuration keeps us from actially practicing it fully on the dummy.

    Since Fut Sao Wing Chun is mainland wing chun I suppose it traditionally uses the post design rather than the wall mounted design?

    Do you have any links to your dummy form for comparison?
     
  11. yak sao

    yak sao Senior Master

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    I don't disagree with this. In my pre WT days I trained a Kung Fu system that used forms extensively.

    As I'm sure you know the Wing Chun approach to forms is more of a cataloguing, while the forms should be practiced extensively so that they are ingrained , The Lion's Share of training is partner work where the forms are brought to life.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2020
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  12. futsaowingchun

    futsaowingchun Brown Belt

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    The original Fut Sao dummy used a stake dummy which you were able to move around it 360 degree , GM Henry Leung perferred the Ip Man style dummy and though it was better to train the ging on the dummy and adopted it.. So I don't know what the origianl dummy form looks like but here is an old video of our dummy form.. I do mine a little different..

     
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  13. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    Yeah, opposite what Futsao stated, the wall-mounted "live dummy" is what prevents us from moving 180° behind the dummy. The old "dead dummy" set in the ground did allow that. I think he got that backwards.
     
  14. futsaowingchun

    futsaowingchun Brown Belt

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    Both types of dummies have there advantages and disadvantages which is why have the siu baat qwa form the the jong..in the jong we do have a move 90 degrees quite a lot but in the Ip Man dummy you only use the 45 degree angle on the jong..
     
  15. futsaowingchun

    futsaowingchun Brown Belt

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    Here is the 2nd section or qwa..it may look the same as the first section but this time instead of you walking around your opponent or your oppoenent being on the inside of the circle now you have changed place so now your on the inside of the circle and your opponent is on the outside..

     
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  16. Oily Dragon

    Oily Dragon Green Belt

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    The proper name of this form is 小八卦拳, and it does not mean "little octagon". "Little Octagon" maybe comes from its Bagua genes, who knows, or just a bad translation somewhere. It makes half-sense if you know the genealogy.

    The name actually means "8 little hexagrams" or " 8 little but divine trigrams" (this is from the I Ching).

    It's not limited to any lineage of Wing Chun, it's a well known Choy Li Fut method, actually broken down into many. But Choy Li Fut has almost 10 fist sets like this, same name but broken out to different animal and element aspects.

    Siu Baat Gwa Kuen (小八卦拳) – Small Eight Trigrams Form
    Baat Gwa Saam Kuen (八卦心拳) – Heart of the Eight Trigrams Form
    Dai Baat Gwa Kuen (大八卦拳) – Big Eight Trigrams Form
    Moi Fa Baat Gwa Kuen (梅花八卦拳) – Plum Flower Eight Trigrams Form
    Yi Jung Baat Gwa Kuen (義壯八卦拳) – Strong Righteousness Eight Trigrams Form
    Daat Ting Baat Gwa Kuen (達亭八卦麒拳) – Daat Ting’s Eight Trigrams Form
    Hung Yan Baat Gwa Kuen (熊人八卦拳) – Bear Man Eight Trigrams Form
    Dou Fu Baat Gwa Kuen (斗虎八卦拳) – Fighting Tiger Eight Trigrams Form
    Ng Ying Dai Baat Gwa Kuen (五形大八卦拳) – Five Animals Big Eight Trigrams Form
     
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  17. futsaowingchun

    futsaowingchun Brown Belt

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    You say its not limited to any Wing Chun lineage beside fut sao lineage I have never seen it anywhere,,
     
  18. Marnetmar

    Marnetmar Black Belt

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    It's almost as if different arts can have different forms of the same name
     
  19. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    They do. :)

    A common one is five animals. A form by that name exists in many different systems. But they are not the same form.
     
  20. futsaowingchun

    futsaowingchun Brown Belt

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