The science behind screaming.

[Anarax]

I'm willing to be that the scream he made was not the same scream he would have made if he thought his life was in danger. Sort of like how we laugh at a guy screaming on the roller coaster, but we don't laugh when we hear a scream that sounds like someone is in real distress.

The researched talked about our ability to recognize screams.

At the time he thought his arm was broken, thus he made the same scream that he would've made in the multiple attacker scenario.

 

[jobo]

If you are able to grab the guy and break something and his friends don't attack right away then stand there with their friend in pain and in your grasp. The reason I won't let go at this point is because I now have someone I can cause pain. It's one less person that can fight (assuming I broke something and I'm using that to cause pain). I also have something that I can put in between me and my attacker. If they do attack cause more pain to the guy, put him in the way of the incoming attack, handle the next guy that comes. If you can give the next guy the same treatment then do so. If not then keep your mobility until an opportunity to give pain comes up again (I didn't think I had to spell it out in such detail).

If you get jumped and swarm to where you can't punch or move, then grab the first limb that you can and cause as much pain as you can and don't let go until you are sure that you have cause enough damaged to that arm or limb to either make the guy scream or make the guy pull away from the fight and not return.

If the group swarms you, then you aren't going to go anywhere. If they get position on you they will strike you while you lay in fetal position. Once you are in fetal position you won't be able to grab anything because you will be out of range. If you are still standing when the swarm hits then you'll be able to grab something especially if you got entangled in the process of being swarmed.

breaking arms isn't that easy, your living in fantasy world, induced by to many kung fu movies

 

[Anarax]

breaking arms isn't that easy, your living in fantasy world, induced by to many kung fu movies

I agree, fighting multiple attackers is an extremely difficult situation to be in. Groin striking, eye poking and knee shots are better techniques. You need to use quick techniques that you can execute on the move. Grabbing someone's limb requires leverage and more time to execute. By the time you get an arm lock his buddies have piled onto your back.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree, fighting multiple attackers is an extremely difficult situation to be in. Groin striking, eye poking and knee shots are better techniques. You need to use quick techniques that you can execute on the move. Grabbing someone's limb requires leverage and more time to execute. By the time you get an arm lock his buddies have piled onto your back.

There are locks that can be executed on the move, taking no more time than a throw. Some double as a throw, so if you miss the lock, you are likely to leave him on the ground, at least. Knee shots are going to be difficult while moving to keep distance and position control against more than one person.

 

[JowGaWolf]

At the time he thought his arm was broken, thus he made the same scream that he would've made in the multiple attacker scenario.

But you said "I knew what happened to him and he was being over dramatic" which I assumed he has a habit of doing. So maybe it becomes a "cry wolf" for you. In addition, he wasn't in a fight he was training, so the energy and tension that is present in a real fight isn't present in a training session. The instructor didn't continue to strike the student as if he was in a fight against a group. So the context in which you heard the scream is not the same context of being in a fight with a group. You also knew that you weren't going to be attacked in a vicious way by your instructor. Context is everything.

breaking arms isn't that easy, your living in fantasy world, induced by to many kung fu movies

You are correct it's not easy to break an arm, However there are some techniques that are easier than others for breaking arms. Most of the easy techniques don't require that you grab the arm like in BJJ to break it. The grab is often an opportunity that may be present after breaking the arm. In the arm breaking techniques that I know. The hands are arms are position in such a way that I have the opportunity to grab. These techniques same techniques can be applied to punches, mainly jabs and linear punches heading towards the face. There are techniques for breaking the punching hand, which is easier for me to do it, only because I've trained it for so long. Breaking fingers are easy to do if you can get over the thought of breaking someone's finger. Knees are easy targets if you know the right kick to use and train it. Most people pay very little attention to their legs so it's probably easier to do that. It's the same with ankles. I'm the person is injured then you attack the injury because the injury is now the weakest point.

If you can't break arms then break hands
If you can't break hands then break fingers
If you can't break fingers then break knees
If you can't break knees then break ankles
If you can't break ankles then break toes,
If you can't break toes then grab testicles
If you can't grab testicles then bite nose, hands, neck, fingers (keep in mind some people may have diseases)
if you can't do any of those then punch and move until the opportunity comes.
If you can't punch and move then do something to cause pain and or fear.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Grabbing someone's limb requires leverage and more time to execute. By the time you get an arm lock his buddies have piled onto your back.

If you are already being piled on, then your options for punching and kicking are greatly lowered. Your options for grabbing are increased because bodies are actually on you.

 

[Anarax]

There are locks that can be executed on the move, taking no more time than a throw. Some double as a throw, so if you miss the lock, you are likely to leave him on the ground, at least.

If the opportunity presents itself and you can execute it in a split second then I can see that being effective. IMO, throws open you up a lot and put you in a bad position if you don't execute them properly. I was more so speaking against the idea if a bunch of guys have piled onto you and you're going to be able to grab the first limb you see and break it easily. You're in a downed position and don't have any leverage.

Knee shots are going to be difficult while moving to keep distance and position control against more than one person.

It can be done to maintain distance if done with the right strategy. Use your footwork to close off one opponent with another and strike when you have positioned one opponent in front of another. This prevents from being attacked by more than one at a time. Referring to below the waist kicks(knee shots, leg kicks, oblique kicks), they have a profound affect on you. Speaking from experience, not being able to get your legs to bear your weight throws everything off. You can generate power, you can't get a good stance underneath you and makes you feel very vulnerable. I would incorporate de-fanging techniques like elbow and hand destructions as well.

Personally I would stick to striking if fighting multiple opponents, but if the right opportunity presented itself for certain grappling techniques then I would take it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you can't break arms then break hands
If you can't break hands then break fingers
If you can't break fingers then break knees
If you can't break knees then break ankles
If you can't break ankles then break toes,
If you can't break toes then grab testicles
If you can't grab testicles then bite nose, hands, neck, fingers (keep in mind some people may have diseases)
if you can't do any of those then punch and move until the opportunity comes.
If you can't punch and move then do something to cause pain and or fear.

I'll just toss out there that I'd go for fingers before most of the rest of this, if they are available. If you get one, they are much easier to break, and mess up so much of what they'd like to do.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If the opportunity presents itself and you can execute it in a split second then I can see that being effective. IMO, throws open you up a lot and put you in a bad position if you don't execute them properly. I was more so speaking against the idea if a bunch of guys have piled onto you and you're going to be able to grab the first limb you see and break it easily. You're in a downed position and don't have any leverage.


It can be done to maintain distance if done with the right strategy. Use your footwork to close off one opponent with another and strike when you have positioned one opponent in front of another. This prevents from being attacked by more than one at a time. Referring to below the waist kicks(knee shots, leg kicks, oblique kicks), they have a profound affect on you. Speaking from experience, not being able to get your legs to bear your weight throws everything off. You can generate power, you can't get a good stance underneath you and makes you feel very vulnerable. I would incorporate de-fanging techniques like elbow and hand destructions as well.

Personally I would stick to striking if fighting multiple opponents, but if the right opportunity presented itself for certain grappling techniques then I would take it.

I don't have a problem with any of your points, except that you place the lock against being piled on, when kicks wouldn't be much available.

Throws do create openings, but if someone's connected to you, that opening is already there - use it against them.

 

[Anarax]

But you said "I knew what happened to him and he was being over dramatic" which I assumed he has a habit of doing. So maybe it becomes a "cry wolf" for you.

Yes, I knew what happened, meaning I knew the technique that was done that I've experienced before

So the context in which you heard the scream is not the same context of being in a fight with a group. You also knew that you weren't going to be attacked in a vicious way by your instructor. Context is everything.

I agree context is important. The context of what I said was 1) Student A responds audibly this way to pain and student B responds this way 2) Auditory response to pain is too inconsistent from person to person to be able to rely on it to assess a threat 3) people will most likely respond more strongly to seeing a major injury take place than basing it off of the pitch the person screams in.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'll just toss out there that I'd go for fingers before most of the rest of this, if they are available. If you get one, they are much easier to break, and mess up so much of what they'd like to do.

totally agree with that. Broken fingers make it difficult to grab and make fists.

Throws do create openings, but if someone's connected to you, that opening is already there - use it against them.

I agree with this as well. It's not like things are going to get better by not taking a throw. If there's an opportunity to throw then just do if the throw is something that you actually train. I wouldn't try to throw if I don't train throws. That could just turn out to be really bad. But my assumption is that if it's an opportunity it's something that you can actually do.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Auditory response to pain is too inconsistent from person to person to be able to rely on it to assess a threat

From what I understand in the research the scream goes straight to where fear is process. How a person handles fear is what is what will be different. Granted some people may not respond to it all, more people do than not. Visual signals are processed differently. I would be willing to guess that visuals go through an analysis phase.

Screams have an instant reaction.

Granted people will respond differently to the scream, a scream may not trigger fear and if it does the person may process fear differently. But when you are fighting you are working of the norms rather than the exceptions.

 

[drop bear]

thats why i have a pet tiger that i bring about with me. when he digs those claws in , its a guaranteed scream.

I show them a picture of my wife.

 

[drop bear]

I can agree with brutal attacks on parts of the body. But in the Hapkido I studied, we considered the original defense sufficient. It might be a joint lock to a quick dislocation, or driving an opponent quickly to the ground and a strike. But unless we are going for a come-along hold, we want it quick, and if brutal, OK. But we don't want to hang on when we could be using that time to defend against another opponent. If you only have one opponent, your method would not be bad. But against multiple opponents you need every second to prepare to defend the next opponent you can get to.

Four punches a second is not a big ask. If that is two guys that is 8 punches a second. So if your arm drag takes one second you still have more trouble than you know what to do with.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Four punches a second is not a big ask. If that is two guys that is 8 punches a second. So if your arm drag takes one second you still have more trouble than you know what to do with.

If you have one arm (for the arm drag), that person probably isn’t going to manage more than a couple of punches per second. One (of questionable utility) if you’ve successfully upset his structure or are at his shoulder. That other guy is still a problem unless you can manage to get to the “other side” of the dude whose arm you’re dragging.

 

[drop bear]

If you have one arm (for the arm drag), that person probably isn’t going to manage more than a couple of punches per second. One (of questionable utility) if you’ve successfully upset his structure or are at his shoulder. That other guy is still a problem unless you can manage to get to the “other side” of the dude whose arm you’re dragging.

I was thinking three guys. I mean the likelihood of that arm drag just working is pretty suspect anyway. But I was just assuming it did to save all the if you resist you arm explodes stuff.

 

[oftheherd1]

I'll just toss out there that I'd go for fingers before most of the rest of this, if they are available. If you get one, they are much easier to break, and mess up so much of what they'd like to do.

I guess it depends on what you train for. I haven't trained that much for finger grabs, in the context you mention. But if I did, I would probably agree and be as comfortable and confident as you. I would tend to go for the larger appendage as easier to grab and keep hold of while I did some kind of damage. Again, I guess it is what you train for.

 

[oftheherd1]

Four punches a second is not a big ask. If that is two guys that is 8 punches a second. So if your arm drag takes one second you still have more trouble than you know what to do with.

Were you replying to another post or did you simply want to show one possible defense and comment on that? I may have, but I don't recall mentioning an 'arm drab' in this thread.

One can play the 'what if' game all day. I would just say that one-on-one, our defenses tend to put the attacker's body in a position he can't strike or kick, and they don't normally take one second. If there are more than one attacker, then you must try to defend in such a way as to be able to take on one or at most two at a time. If ten attackers try to pile on you at one time, then yes, that may be a problem. Of course there is always the old saying that you can't whip my butt because you will run as fast as you can while I will run as fast as I have to.

 

[drop bear]

At the time he thought his arm was broken, thus he made the same scream that he would've made in the multiple attacker scenario.

I broke a guys arm in a fight once with a hammerlock. Which surprised me because I thought the joint would go first.

Anyway he just kept on fighting. And then my mate tried to wrist lock him and couldnt because his arm had no structure.

(He complained a bit when the cops handcuffed him though)

 

[drop bear]

Double post.