The scary practicality of BJJ

[punisher73]

And then it becomes a matter of skill, and we're back into the fan fiction thing I mentioned above. Could you stop it if you wanted to? Could you prevent a competent boxer from landing a punch? Maybe. Depends on how you defend, whether you can slip the punch effectively and how you guard your noggin. Chances are, if you have never boxed, no matter how fast you are or whether you intellectually understand that you should move your head, you're not going to keep a boxer from landing a punch. Most people understand and accept this to be true. Your ability to defend isn't ENTIRELY within your control. Your skill (or lack of skill) vs bad guy's skill.

But for some reason, when it comes to grappling, people with little to no training believe they have a chance if they just try hard enough against a competent grappler.

Conversely, you know as soon as you touch someone whether they've got some training or not. We have new guys come in all the time alleging that they have no prior training.

I want to be clear, the entire conversation about whether or not BJJ is good for self defense is not what I'm commenting on. I'm strictly commenting on the idea that a person (not necessarily you) who has little to no training in ground fighting has a choice if a competent grappler decides to triangle him or sweep him.

I agree with you. An unexpected move set up properly has a high chance of being sucessful. Why? Because the other person doesn't have the recognition skills to know what is coming. It's why BJJ was so dominate in the early days of "NHB" before it evolved into what you call "MMA". People didn't know what could be done and had never practiced against it. This not only applies to ground grappling, but striking as well.

Also, a trained grappler will have the advantage of using the dirty tactics in a ground situation because they have positional control and how to transition. Every grappler who has trained somewhere will have been told by the instructor "position before submission". Same thing with dirty tactics, if you are rolled and controlled, you aren't going to have much chance to get to the eyes/groin etc.

Reminds me of a bad book I saw at the bookstore one time. It was on using pressure points to counter grappling. One of the first techniques they taught was to push your fingers in the other person's throat while they have you mounted so you can create space. ANYONE, who has had a couple of lessons in BJJ will see that this technique will get you armbarred VERY quickly for giving someone an extended arm while they are on their back and mounted. It LOOKS like good advice, but without understanding the basic ground game will get you hurt very quickly.

 

[Mz1]

I don't think it matters that much how good the practioner is. As soon as someone tries to get me in a triangle I'm going for the balls. I don't care. I'm not going to wait for him to get his legs into position before I do this. Of course I live in San Jose, CA where it seems that everyone trains, or says they train. Really I just see Tapout shirts everywhere (rolling my eyes). So I assume everyone is trained.

As soon as I'm on my back my #1 priority is to get back on my feet. PERIOD. Whether that be by a sweep, reversal, whatever.

Looks like you haven't fought MMA against someone who's decent or good, say a BJJ Blue or Purple and above. I was being very generous with that 3 seconds to slip on a triangle.

An experienced fighter vs. someone equally trained....as soon as they're being taken down to the ground and onto their back, will usually start transitioning into a triangle choke attempt WHILE, on the way down (before their back hits the ground), if Triangles are one of their strong points. The triangle may already be locked within 1 second or less, and the passing out stage beings around the 2 second mark. This was how I got caught by someone better than me at grappling. It was just ONE quick move where he threw both of his legs and yanked my arm... once I took him down and his back hit the ground.... while we were dry and not all sweaty yet. It was already too late to try to pick him up. His balls aren't even accessible to me from this position.

See, you obviously aren't grappling in a good BJJ/MMA joint if you think you can grab at balls that easily. You can even TRY to bite too if you want (although you'd be biting your own arm). Just know, that now you've escalated the situation to where payback in pain or maiming is inevitable. Hell, where your head is currently at or already trapped....as soon as I feel my balls being grabbed, I'm going to remove 1 or 2 of your eyeballs.

 

[Mz1]

I don't disagree that getting up is a good idea. But the whole balls thing is off. If a triangle is being done correctly ones balls are pretty safe.
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Yea, people who don't really train BJJ and especially not MMA would think they can just grab or punch at someone's balls while they're passing out because they really don't understand what's going on when watching the UFC and such.

There's a pretty good reason why extremely trained fighters who may have millions of dollars in fight prizes, future endorsements, fame, etc...on the line......still tap out when they know they're about to pass out from a triangle in the UFC.

 

[Steve]

To answer the original question, I would never put someone in a triangle in a SD situation. I have seen people do this and get picked up and body slammed too many times, and on concrete getting slammed is a fight finisher. Also you expose your genital area with a triangle. One arm is in and one is out, right? The arm that is free can easily punch, grab, etc. the family jewels. Not good. I also witnessed a fight once where guy 1 got guy 2 into a triangle. Guy 2 tried his best to get out of it and couldn't. So what did he do? He poked guy 1 in the @$$hole. No joke. He jabbed him with his thumb as hard as he could. Guy 1 was so surprised (and probably in pain) that he let guy 2 go immediately. Then guy 2 got in the mount and proceded to give guy 1 the beating of his life.

I'm glad I didn't see this one earlier. This is utter nonsense. A knife? Yeah, that is a legitimate threat. But you're saying you saw someone get dip sticked in a street fight? Give me a break.

Your descriptions just don't make sense, biologically. About the only thing someone could punch from a triangle is my butt cheek, and you can't generate a lot of power if you're posture is broken down and you're losing consciousness. Frankly, if you're punching me in the *** with your outside arm, you're not paying attention to the inside arm, which is at risk for an armbar.

Look. I don't think a triangle is a good technique for a street fight, in general. But let's be real, for Pete's sake.


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[arnisador]

I'm glad I didn't see this one earlier. This is utter nonsense. A knife? Yeah, that is a legitimate threat. But you're saying you saw someone get dip sticked in a street fight?

I'm skeptical about this too.

Your descriptions just don't make sense, biologically. About the only thing someone could punch from a triangle is my butt cheek, and you can't generate a lot of power if you're posture is broken down and you're losing consciousness. Frankly, if you're punching me in the *** with your outside arm, you're not paying attention to the inside arm, which is at risk for an armbar.

This assumes everything is going right. I've done BJJ and I've been triangled by guys who hadn't cinched it yet and I could've nailed them in the yarbles with a short, driving one-knuckle punch that would've realigned their priorities. There may be a much bigger weight disparity than you're used to in a street fight. I think we both agree it's not a go-to self-defense move, but I certainly wouldn't assume it'd just work if I did try to do it.

 

[Steve]

I'm skeptical about this too.



This assumes everything is going right. I've done BJJ and I've been triangled by guys who hadn't cinched it yet and I could've nailed them in the yarbles with a short, driving one-knuckle punch that would've realigned their priorities. There may be a much bigger weight disparity than you're used to in a street fight. I think we both agree it's not a go-to self-defense move, but I certainly wouldn't assume it'd just work if I did try to do it.

So... you're right. But we should also not assume that someone who is competent in BJJ would force the submission. Look, this is what I talked about before. In order to have a cogent discussion about this, we have to fill in a lot of blanks and make a lot of presumptions. It's like an endless circle where people say, 'what if?' followed by, "if that, I'd do this."

For the sake of the conversation, I'll put out a few of my presumptions regarding this situation. First, that a person competent in BJJ (I'd say high blue and above) would not consider a triangle his "go to" self defense technique. The only potential exception is if he was something of a specialist. I've rolled with guys who can catch an armbar from anywhere. I've rolled with guys who can catch a triangle from anywhere. I know how to defend the triangle, but these guys get them from angles and set ups that are sneaky and effective, and the submission is deep and fast.

Second, that even if a triangle were attempted, a competent grappler would not attempt to force the submission. If it's not there, particularly in a street fight, a competent grappler would move to something else. In other words, if the triangle was attempted and not deep, an experienced jiu-jitiero would go for the arm or a sweep or create space to stand up. All of those options are available depending upon what the person you're grappling with does. Bottom line: it depends.

Just think about this. The simplest concept to avoiding a triangle is to either keep both arms in or both arms out. You will get triangled only if one arm is isolated. So, in order to defend the triangle you start with good posture to avoid the choke and then work to do one of three things: clear the inside arm, clear your head or get your outside arm in. The third option isn't often there. The only way you could punch me in my gonads is if you had room to get your arm back inside, and that would only happen if I didn't really have a triangle. In a triangle, I'm putting pressure on the back of your head, compromising your posture. Your inside arm is probably in danger of being armbarred. The only real targets for a punch would be to my *** cheek, possibly a kidney or something on my back, but the amount of power you'd be able to generate is questionable.

The only real dangers to me would be if you had a knife or if you had a friend.

 

[PoolMan]

I'm glad I didn't see this one earlier. This is utter nonsense. A knife? Yeah, that is a legitimate threat. But you're saying you saw someone get dip sticked in a street fight? Give me a break.

Your descriptions just don't make sense, biologically. About the only thing someone could punch from a triangle is my butt cheek, and you can't generate a lot of power if you're posture is broken down and you're losing consciousness. Frankly, if you're punching me in the *** with your outside arm, you're not paying attention to the inside arm, which is at risk for an armbar.

Look. I don't think a triangle is a good technique for a street fight, in general. But let's be real, for Pete's sake.


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I am only telling you what I witnessed. Believe it or not, it makes no difference to me.

And I don't understand what you mean by "your discriptions just don't make sense, biologically". Did you mean anatomically?

 

[PoolMan]

Looks like you haven't fought MMA against someone who's decent or good, say a BJJ Blue or Purple and above. I was being very generous with that 3 seconds to slip on a triangle.

An experienced fighter vs. someone equally trained....as soon as they're being taken down to the ground and onto their back, will usually start transitioning into a triangle choke attempt WHILE, on the way down (before their back hits the ground), if Triangles are one of their strong points. The triangle may already be locked within 1 second or less, and the passing out stage beings around the 2 second mark. This was how I got caught by someone better than me at grappling. It was just ONE quick move where he threw both of his legs and yanked my arm... once I took him down and his back hit the ground.... while we were dry and not all sweaty yet. It was already too late to try to pick him up. His balls aren't even accessible to me from this position.

See, you obviously aren't grappling in a good BJJ/MMA joint if you think you can grab at balls that easily. You can even TRY to bite too if you want (although you'd be biting your own arm). Just know, that now you've escalated the situation to where payback in pain or maiming is inevitable. Hell, where your head is currently at or already trapped....as soon as I feel my balls being grabbed, I'm going to remove 1 or 2 of your eyeballs.

I have fought against many an MMA fighter. I have never been put into a triangle in a self-defense situation though and never said I had. Only that I had witnessed it happen, and that it didn't pan out too well for them.

 

[punisher73]

I have fought against many an MMA fighter. I have never been put into a triangle in a self-defense situation though and never said I had. Only that I had witnessed it happen, and that it didn't pan out too well for them.

Here is the problem with all of these types of arguments. You stated that you fought against "many an MMA fighter". What does that mean? Someone who goes to a class once in a while and sits around talking instead of training, or someone who legitimately trains in differing martial arts? What is the skill level? If I fought against a BJJ newbie and beat him because he hadn't learned/practiced clinching and takedowns from the standing position, it is more a reflection on the person's skill level and not on BJJ. Most of the people I have run across claim to be an "MMA fighter" and have never taken any proper classes at all, but just like the sound of it and want to impress people.

It goes back to my same complaint against people who talk about your "average streetfight". Is it 2 people with a beef and are agreeing to duke it out? Is it a criminal assault? Most of the people I know who get into fights (outside of professions that require it, or it is a part of their job) are in places or locations where liquor is involved and are avoidable.

I've been attacked by some pretty low skill people as well working in LE, and I chalk it up to them being inept NOT the system they were claiming or attempting to use wasn't practical. Just about ANY martial art that is made fun of on here or claimed to be ineffective on places like Bullshido I can tell you a story of someone I know who used that same martial art to protect themselves out on the street (aikido, boxing, TKD, Hapkido, karate to name a few).

 

[Steve]

I am only telling you what I witnessed. Believe it or not, it makes no difference to me.

And I don't understand what you mean by "your discriptions just don't make sense, biologically". Did you mean anatomically?

Yes. Your description doesn't make sense anatomically. It just doesn't work.

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[Tez3]

Would this work better....?

 

[Cyriacus]

Yes. Your description doesn't make sense anatomically. It just doesn't work.

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Never mind anatomy - Psychologically it makes no sense.

 

[Steve]

I am only telling you what I witnessed. Believe it or not, it makes no difference to me.

And I don't understand what you mean by "your discriptions just don't make sense, biologically". Did you mean anatomically?

Okay. Giving you every benefit of the doubt I can, is it possible you "saw" something but don't have enough experience to understand what you saw? Your description really doesn't make sense on any level.

 

[PoolMan]

Never mind anatomy - Psychologically it makes no sense.

I don't really see how Psychology plays into it. Could you please elaborate?

 

[PoolMan]

Here is the problem with all of these types of arguments. You stated that you fought against "many an MMA fighter". What does that mean? Someone who goes to a class once in a while and sits around talking instead of training, or someone who legitimately trains in differing martial arts? What is the skill level? If I fought against a BJJ newbie and beat him because he hadn't learned/practiced clinching and takedowns from the standing position, it is more a reflection on the person's skill level and not on BJJ. Most of the people I have run across claim to be an "MMA fighter" and have never taken any proper classes at all, but just like the sound of it and want to impress people.

It goes back to my same complaint against people who talk about your "average streetfight". Is it 2 people with a beef and are agreeing to duke it out? Is it a criminal assault? Most of the people I know who get into fights (outside of professions that require it, or it is a part of their job) are in places or locations where liquor is involved and are avoidable.

I've been attacked by some pretty low skill people as well working in LE, and I chalk it up to them being inept NOT the system they were claiming or attempting to use wasn't practical. Just about ANY martial art that is made fun of on here or claimed to be ineffective on places like Bullshido I can tell you a story of someone I know who used that same martial art to protect themselves out on the street (aikido, boxing, TKD, Hapkido, karate to name a few).

I really can't be sure of the skill level of the people I have fought. I didn't wait around for them to wake up and ask them LOL

 

[PoolMan]

Okay. Giving you every benefit of the doubt I can, is it possible you "saw" something but don't have enough experience to understand what you saw? Your description really doesn't make sense on any level.

I have plenty of experience

 

[Steve]

I have plenty of experience

Yeah. Okay. Listen, I'm going to just stop the madness now. It sounds like you're going to persist in this, so have at it. Enjoy living in a world where life is hard on the mean streets of Sacramento, where sticking your finger in another guys' butt is a viable self defense tactic, and people have giant gonads that hang so low they make it hard to walk. So, believe you or not? I don't believe you. I just don't. It's like in the 40 Year Old Virgin when Steve Carrell's character is trying to describe sex when he's never had it. Breasts just don't feel like bags of sand (if anyone doesn't get that reference, you owe it to yourself to watch the movie. It's great).

http://youtu.be/Vn3IRHhPXMo?t=1m5s (NSFW for language and sexual references)

Arnisador, you owe me, man! I blame you for chiding me into actually taking the time to try and make sense of this thread!

 

[arnisador]

Put it down as another fight you've won!

 

[PoolMan]

Yeah. Okay. Listen, I'm going to just stop the madness now. It sounds like you're going to persist in this, so have at it. Enjoy living in a world where life is hard on the mean streets of Sacramento, where sticking your finger in another guys' butt is a viable self defense tactic, and people have giant gonads that hang so low they make it hard to walk. So, believe you or not? I don't believe you. I just don't. It's like in the 40 Year Old Virgin when Steve Carrell's character is trying to describe sex when he's never had it. Breasts just don't feel like bags of sand (if anyone doesn't get that reference, you owe it to yourself to watch the movie. It's great).

http://youtu.be/Vn3IRHhPXMo?t=1m5s (NSFW for language and sexual references)

Arnisador, you owe me, man! I blame you for chiding me into actually taking the time to try and make sense of this thread!

That 40 year old virgin analogy is pretty funny lol. Ok, we'll agree to disagree. Fine by me. This is going nowhere anyway. At least nowhere productive. Thank you all for your comments.

 

[Mz1]

I have fought against many an MMA fighter. I have never been put into a triangle in a self-defense situation though and never said I had. Only that I had witnessed it happen, and that it didn't pan out too well for them.

MMA fighters can mean a guy who just had his first and only fight in MMA and lost. He's still an MMA fighter though. Some people train MMA, but don't even fight. Most just do BJJ only. Based on what you posted about how you think you can just grab someone's nuts and such, it just shows that you've never really fought against anyone who's not a noob.

And did you really fight them by going for KO's or was it just grappling with no punches and kicks?