The scary practicality of BJJ

[James Kovacich]

...then what is it? Survival?

If you have friends and he doesn't as Steve presented. How could it be survival. As far as you "trying" to pull off a triangle in the street. I hope you never have to. To take it a step further. After a few weeks of BJJ, you haven't become proficient at anything yet except dreaming of the "possilibilties" which in time you will "know" aren't what your seeing today.

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[Steve]

The original question was more focused and admits of a more detailed answer than "it depends." But I suspect this thread has run its course.

Sorry, but even in the OP it would depend. I can think of scenarios in which each of the proposed responses would be okay.

For example, is the guy attacking me a drunk, but stupid buddy? Do I believe that me life is in danger? Do I have friends? Does he? How good am I from guard? Is he armed? Am I?


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[Aiki Lee]

I guess I am. My original post was to question what I WOULD do in a ground situation in a real fight.

What do you think you would do? I'd advise the same as James. You should reverse it and take the top position and then get to your feet from there.

 

[Steve]

What do you think you would do? I'd advise the same as James. You should reverse it and take the top position and then get to your feet from there.

Likely this. ^^^^ or open guard, create space and stand up. At least at my school, we routinely practice what is called a technical stand up, where you do so without leaving your head open to get kicked.


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[arnisador]

Sorry, but even in the OP it would depend. I can think of scenarios in which each of the proposed responses would be okay.

You're kind of taking a stance against discussing martial arts on a martial arts forum at this point. Several people found a way to give a more useful answer than "it depends". Feel free to ask a question of the OP to help clarify, though.

 

[arnisador]

Likely this. ^^^^ or open guard, create space and stand up. At least at my school, we routinely practice what is called a technical stand up, where you do so without leaving your head open to get kicked.

We practiced a form of that too--often. In almost all cases I'd rather be on my feet!

 

[Kaygee]

So is it safe to say that BJJ is just like any other Martial Art in that it is more of an actual art or competitive sport than a self defense mechanism? It seems that they all are nowadays, with the exception of some striking parts of boxing and muay thai. Is Krav Maga really the only "martial art" that teaches you how to practically defend yourself?

 

[jks9199]

So is it safe to say that BJJ is just like any other Martial Art in that it is more of an actual art or competitive sport than a self defense mechanism? It seems that they all are nowadays, with the exception of some striking parts of boxing and muay thai. Is Krav Maga really the only "martial art" that teaches you how to practically defend yourself?

No. While some arts are heavily ring or sport oriented (Muay Thai, Olympic TKD, for example), that doesn't mean that they cannot teach effective fighting principles for real fighting. But any overemphasis on the sporting aspects or rules will distance you from combative practicality. The first rule of real violence? If you know it's going to happen, don't be there. If you must be there, be armed. And bring friends. Who are also armed. And bringing their friends...

Most of the things we think of as "martial arts" are combative traditions; means to hand down principles of handling violence or combat with some reasonable degree of safety to the students. Some migrated into or got merged with spiritual/personal development ideas along the way. Others emphasized the sporting side, adding more rules or safety principles.

Since the initial question here is about BJJ... You tie up with a guy for real, you've got two choices: hug him until the cops come, or take him out somehow. Hit him, choke him, break the leg that you're trapping... Do something that will do enough damage to stop any further attack and let you get away. Because, unless you're a cop or otherwise have a duty to act and restrain the bad guy (btw -- there are times that cops have every justification and right to run away, too. They just get to come back with friends...), self defense is about that: stopping the attack, and getting somewhere safe.

 

[arnisador]

I think there are a lot of good, well-rounded martial arts out there--and even more instructors teaching good, well-rounded self-defense systems based in martial arts.

The sport aspect of BJJ is the key to its effectiveness: You learn to make the techniques actually work, unlike "too deadly to practice" martial arts. It's one of the reasons the sport of boxing makes for the basis of such an effective self-defense system. Practicing BJJ-as-sport improves your self-defense game, but the difference is whether you're playing it by sport rules, or by self-defense motivated rules. Stick with BJJ, but test it and integrate it!

 

[Steve]

You're kind of taking a stance against discussing martial arts on a martial arts forum at this point. Several people found a way to give a more useful answer than "it depends". Feel free to ask a question of the OP to help clarify, though.

Why are you busting my balls? There are two ways to approach the OP, IMO. we can write what amounts to fan fiction, inventing a scenario specific enough to give a worthwhile answer, or we can answer honestly that it depends on an almost limitless number of "what if" questions.

I post most often from an iPad, so my posts tend to be brief. But I did try to add more in other posts. Sheesh.


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[Aiki Lee]

So is it safe to say that BJJ is just like any other Martial Art in that it is more of an actual art or competitive sport than a self defense mechanism? It seems that they all are nowadays, with the exception of some striking parts of boxing and muay thai. Is Krav Maga really the only "martial art" that teaches you how to practically defend yourself?

No.
To add to what jks and arnisador said, the specific art you train in does not really matter as much as HOW you train in that art. Now, it is important to understand what each martial art you might consider taking was initially designed for. Some arts are designed more for sport, some for grittier more self defense or battle oriented situations, and others for more philosophical and esoteric reasons. That said, I think the unifying element that makes an art "martial" is all about the mindset. It can be fun to train but it must be serious and realistic in its aims.

You might look at karate or krav maga and see more easily applied self defense lessons because you can see techniques and skills you could arguably say looks like something that would be useful in fending off an attacker. In truth something like iado can have SD application as well. Not in the form of cutting a person with a sword but because it helps on to develope a serious mindset, awareness of self and surroundings, and other mental skills that assist one in successfully fending off an attacker.

The point I want you to take is that you should train in what you want to train in but understand its original purpose. In BJJ it's competition but it still can be useful for SD. All you have to do is consider what the changes are outside of the competitive environment and train to meet those conditions. BJJ certainly can be good for self defense but what you end up practicing wouldn't resemble what you would see in competitions.

 

[PoolMan]

To answer the original question, I would never put someone in a triangle in a SD situation. I have seen people do this and get picked up and body slammed too many times, and on concrete getting slammed is a fight finisher. Also you expose your genital area with a triangle. One arm is in and one is out, right? The arm that is free can easily punch, grab, etc. the family jewels. Not good. I also witnessed a fight once where guy 1 got guy 2 into a triangle. Guy 2 tried his best to get out of it and couldn't. So what did he do? He poked guy 1 in the @$$hole. No joke. He jabbed him with his thumb as hard as he could. Guy 1 was so surprised (and probably in pain) that he let guy 2 go immediately. Then guy 2 got in the mount and proceded to give guy 1 the beating of his life.

 

[Mz1]

I know a lot of the students only use this for sport and competitive reasons, in fact, most of them do not even attend the MMA class that is offered at my gym, they only come in for the BJJ.

So let us put aside the competition and sport part of BJJ for a second, shall we?

There certainly is striking and SD aspects to BJJ, as seen when Royce Gracie threw strikes while standing and on the ground in the early UFC's. Nowadays, there's no training of strikes in BJJ class is due to there being a separate class for striking in MT/Boxing and MMA which combines both.

But the truth is, many people who do BJJ only, are just afraid to get hit in the face. And many who do MT only while never BJJ nor MMA is because they're afraid to get taken down and submitted. The MMA class is the most feared by many in an MMA gym as it's a very bad feeling to get taken down and pummeled on. Even after competing in BJJ and MT for many years, the first time I put them both together in MMA hard sparring, it was a very scary & different feeling to getting GNP'ed.

Also, many who are higher rank in BJJ, don't like become that complete noob again by starting out in MT, after being in the same dojo for many years. Worse is getting beat by beginner MT's. Same thing for advance MT fighters venturing onto the BJJ mat. Lots of pride involved.

As stated, I am horrible when rolling with the higher ranking students, but what would be the reprecussions of someone rushing and tackling me to the ground in a real life situation? If I do not bump my head, of course, my first move is going to be to put him in my guard. Then, probably something like a triangle (because I do not know many other moves right now).

With about 11 classes, you should be able to defend a takedown vs. some untrained slob on the street your size or a little bigger.

If you're taken down and must pull guard....and get that triangle.... you should squeeze that triangle hard and try to feel when he's out. Although you don't want to cause brain damage or worse, death....and having to deal with the Law and/or civil litigation later.

You can ease up on the choke and give him a chance to give up. But this is iffy, because once let go, he could resume fighting again. Or if his face is exposed, start punching it to teach him a lesson and cause fear.

If you're about to let him go, do it slowly while positioning yourself to do a scissor sweep on him immediately. This way, once he's out of the choke, he's not in your guard to GnP you.....as you swept him and now have the full mount...where you can talk more sense into him or punch him some more....and can standup and leave.

Another thing to be careful is to not fall for the "TAP". In the street, they may tap as a trick for you to let go and then commence fighting you again.

 

[Mz1]

To answer the original question, I would never put someone in a triangle in a SD situation. I have seen people do this and get picked up and body slammed too many times, and on concrete getting slammed is a fight finisher. Also you expose your genital area with a triangle. One arm is in and one is out, right? The arm that is free can easily punch, grab, etc. the family jewels. Not good. I also witnessed a fight once where guy 1 got guy 2 into a triangle. Guy 2 tried his best to get out of it and couldn't. So what did he do? He poked guy 1 in the @$$hole. No joke. He jabbed him with his thumb as hard as he could. Guy 1 was so surprised (and probably in pain) that he let guy 2 go immediately. Then guy 2 got in the mount and proceded to give guy 1 the beating of his life.

See, this depends on how good the BJJ is compared to his attacker....strength, skills, etc.

A BJJ Blue and above should be able to execute a triangle and put some untrained street slob to sleep in 3-5 seconds. Most untrained people don't know WTF is going on during that first 3 seconds, and then the next 2 seconds....they're already getting dreamy, weak and on the way to Snoozeville. Only skilled grapplers and such would know that a triangle is being attempted on them....but they're better off doing something else (ie. turn in and knee to the face) rather than go for the pickup and slam. If someone picks me up, I would let go, slide down his body, grab his ankles, my knees pushing at his hips, sweep....now I'm in the full mount punching his face repeatedly.

Now if the BJJ sucks....but if that's all he's got is a sloppy triangle attempt, then that's all he's got. What else should he do if he got taken down and must pull guard?

 

[arnisador]

I'm not crazy about a triangle choke in the streets. You might put him right out, or he might bite, or stand up, or stab you with a knife you can't see, etc. I'd be inclined to go another way if possible but wouldn't absolutely rule it out.

 

[PoolMan]

See, this depends on how good the BJJ is compared to his attacker....strength, skills, etc.

A BJJ Blue and above should be able to execute a triangle and put some untrained street slob to sleep in 3-5 seconds. Most untrained people don't know WTF is going on during that first 3 seconds, and then the next 2 seconds....they're already getting dreamy, weak and on the way to Snoozeville. Only skilled grapplers and such would know that a triangle is being attempted on them....but they're better off doing something else (ie. turn in and knee to the face) rather than go for the pickup and slam. If someone picks me up, I would let go, slide down his body, grab his ankles, my knees pushing at his hips, sweep....now I'm in the full mount punching his face repeatedly.

Now if the BJJ sucks....but if that's all he's got is a sloppy triangle attempt, then that's all he's got. What else should he do if he got taken down and must pull guard?

I don't think it matters that much how good the practioner is. As soon as someone tries to get me in a triangle I'm going for the balls. I don't care. I'm not going to wait for him to get his legs into position before I do this. Of course I live in San Jose, CA where it seems that everyone trains, or says they train. Really I just see Tapout shirts everywhere (rolling my eyes). So I assume everyone is trained.

As soon as I'm on my back my #1 priority is to get back on my feet. PERIOD. Whether that be by a sweep, reversal, whatever.

 

[Steve]

I don't think it matters that much how good the practioner is. As soon as someone tries to get me in a triangle I'm going for the balls. I don't care. I'm not going to wait for him to get his legs into position before I do this. Of course I live in San Jose, CA where it seems that everyone trains, or says they train. Really I just see Tapout shirts everywhere (rolling my eyes). So I assume everyone is trained.

As soon as I'm on my back my #1 priority is to get back on my feet. PERIOD. Whether that be by a sweep, reversal, whatever.

I don't disagree that getting up is a good idea. But the whole balls thing is off. If a triangle is being done correctly ones balls are pretty safe.
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[James Kovacich]

One only needs to watch the UFC to understand the basics of ground n pound. Most of the younger generation are UFC fans these days. It is the fastest growing sport and even the best grapplers do get pounded.

A new guy to BJJ is crazy to do anything from his back except trying to escape.

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[PoolMan]

I don't disagree that getting up is a good idea. But the whole balls thing is off. If a triangle is being done correctly ones balls are pretty safe.
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That's why I said I'm not waiting for him to get his legs into position...

 

[Steve]

That's why I said I'm not waiting for him to get his legs into position...

And then it becomes a matter of skill, and we're back into the fan fiction thing I mentioned above. Could you stop it if you wanted to? Could you prevent a competent boxer from landing a punch? Maybe. Depends on how you defend, whether you can slip the punch effectively and how you guard your noggin. Chances are, if you have never boxed, no matter how fast you are or whether you intellectually understand that you should move your head, you're not going to keep a boxer from landing a punch. Most people understand and accept this to be true. Your ability to defend isn't ENTIRELY within your control. Your skill (or lack of skill) vs bad guy's skill.

But for some reason, when it comes to grappling, people with little to no training believe they have a chance if they just try hard enough against a competent grappler.

Conversely, you know as soon as you touch someone whether they've got some training or not. We have new guys come in all the time alleging that they have no prior training.

I want to be clear, the entire conversation about whether or not BJJ is good for self defense is not what I'm commenting on. I'm strictly commenting on the idea that a person (not necessarily you) who has little to no training in ground fighting has a choice if a competent grappler decides to triangle him or sweep him.