The Sai

[Xue Sheng]

I am a CMA guy but I have to admit I have always wanted to learn the Sai I even went out a bought a set a few years back but I have never got beyond the thrust Block.

I came across this and just wanted to post it out of nostalgia for something I always wanted to learn

The Sai.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm in the same boat. I bought a pair when I was a kid, years before I ever had any formal martial arts training. I bought Fumio Demura's book as well. All I ever figured out was how to flip it back and forth, and that I could punch or strike or stab or block or elbow with it, but not really HOW to do it effectively.

I would also like to learn a bit more about it, if the opportunity arises. I still have that pair, a pretty hefty set compared to some I'm seeing nowadays. Seems like everyone is going with the lighter weaponry ala "wushu" these days. Good for speed in performance and competition, but not good for realistic training. Personally, I stopped playing with toy weapons when I was about 12. Then I started playing with real weapons.

My sifu told me he learned a sai kata once, Okinawan, not Chinese (I have seen this weapon contained in Chinese curriculum as well). Maybe I can get him to brush up on his memory and teach it to me.

 

[Sukerkin]

You chaps are not alone in this wish for some 'proper' training with the sai. I've hinted at it with my sensei (along with bo) but to no avail so far.

I do believe that it is considered to be something of a violin in the weapon world i.e. very hard to use well but that's part of the attraction.

 

[grydth]

My oldest daughter's a red belt and began learning them several months ago.... its a little frightening to watch one's "little girl" learn a form that fast and appear so formidable wielding them. Not really 'swords' per se, but very formidable. Can actually be used against a katana.

While she practices sai, I myself got to do a couple hours of bokken work on Sunday - a friend is testing for Shodan in Iaido in a month or two and needed a volunteer for the 2 person forms. His girlfriend expressed the unfounded belief that I would kill him during training....

 

[Doc_Jude]

My teacher is starting to teach us some sai (tjabang, siku-siku, etc) work. Apparently his teacher Rudy Terlinden loved the Sai, he said they were the Swiss Army Knife of martial arts weapons, considering the different ways of holding them and the different applications. Of course, he was coming from a pretty varied martial background.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have liked the sai since before my TKD days and I finally bought a set after I started training CMA and other than a video made by a gentleman form Okinawa whose name I cannot remember (I need to see if I still have that tape) I have never trained the Sai. But I remember that video had some pretty "interesting training" one of which was pushups holding the Sai. I tried doing them but they were fairly painful and I started to think push to high and just one slip and you could get a sai in the shoulder so I stopped.

I'm in the same boat. I bought a pair when I was a kid, years before I ever had any formal martial arts training. I bought Fumio Demura's book as well. All I ever figured out was how to flip it back and forth, and that I could punch or strike or stab or block or elbow with it, but not really HOW to do it effectively.

I would also like to learn a bit more about it, if the opportunity arises. I still have that pair, a pretty hefty set compared to some I'm seeing nowadays. Seems like everyone is going with the lighter weaponry ala "wushu" these days. Good for speed in performance and competition, but not good for realistic training. Personally, I stopped playing with toy weapons when I was about 12. Then I started playing with real weapons.

My sifu told me he learned a sai kata once, Okinawan, not Chinese (I have seen this weapon contained in Chinese curriculum as well). Maybe I can get him to brush up on his memory and teach it to me.

The set I got is rather old now and pretty hefty as well. I know I can put them though a board like in the video I linked... Not that I ever tried it mind you :uhyeah:

There is a CHINESE form with the sai :eye-popping: Where, what style, I gots ta know.

 

[tellner]

The cabang is used a bit differently than the sai and has much different proportions. I've tried doing cabang technique with a sai and have run into problems.

 

[Doc_Jude]

The cabang is used a bit differently than the sai and has much different proportions. I've tried doing cabang technique with a sai and have run into problems.

I presume you're referring to the tjabang with with the LARGE fork and the blade-like central prong?

 

[tellner]

Not necessarily. Even the one with the blunt central tine is a bit wider across the crosspiece which allows some different maneuvers.

 

[Grenadier]

The sai is a beautiful weapon, and it's not too difficult to gain decent proficiency with them.

There are some things you have to watch for, though...

1) Find a competent kobudo / kobujutsu instructor, who can teach you the proper basics and mechanics.

2) Make sure that you have a decent pair of sai. It may sound depressing, but the vast majority of people who own sai, have a pair of junk sai that were purchased from Century Sports, AWMA, etc. These are heavy, unbalanced, and if you practice techniques with junk sai, then your technique will be less than ideal.

To make things worse, the use of those overweight, unbalanced sai, is going to rub your hands raw, while generating a lot of fatigue, further contributing to improper technique.

I know that the cost is going to discourage some folks, but a decent pair of sai is going to cost you about $150 or more. There are plenty of excellent sai makers (Worbington, Shureido, Agena, etc) who can put out a really nice pair for you. Think of it this way; each time you buy a pair of junk sai, you're probably going to be throwing away 30-40 bucks.

3) Make sure that your pair of sai fit you. Again, talk to a competent kobudo instructor about this.

Seeing people trying to work the sai with an ill-fitting pair is pretty painful, and seeing the looks of frustration on their faces is even more so.




Our system has been fortunate, that we're able to bring in Shihan Toshihiro Oshiro once every two years, and he conducts some fantastic clinics in the art of Yamanni Chinen Ryu.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The sai is a beautiful weapon, and it's not too difficult to gain decent proficiency with them.

There are some things you have to watch for, though...

1) Find a competent kobudo / kobujutsu instructor, who can teach you the proper basics and mechanics.

2) Make sure that you have a decent pair of sai. It may sound depressing, but the vast majority of people who own sai, have a pair of junk sai that were purchased from Century Sports, AWMA, etc. These are heavy, unbalanced, and if you practice techniques with junk sai, then your technique will be less than ideal.

To make things worse, the use of those overweight, unbalanced sai, is going to rub your hands raw, while generating a lot of fatigue, further contributing to improper technique.

I know that the cost is going to discourage some folks, but a decent pair of sai is going to cost you about $150 or more. There are plenty of excellent sai makers (Worbington, Shureido, Agena, etc) who can put out a really nice pair for you. Think of it this way; each time you buy a pair of junk sai, you're probably going to be throwing away 30-40 bucks.

3) Make sure that your pair of sai fit you. Again, talk to a competent kobudo instructor about this.

Seeing people trying to work the sai with an ill-fitting pair is pretty painful, and seeing the looks of frustration on their faces is even more so.




Our system has been fortunate, that we're able to bring in Shihan Toshihiro Oshiro once every two years, and he conducts some fantastic clinics in the art of Yamanni Chinen Ryu.

\

Thank You for the information :asian:

 

[Doc_Jude]

Not necessarily. Even the one with the blunt central tine is a bit wider across the crosspiece which allows some different maneuvers.

Okay, I gotcha. I agree, the wide tines really allow for a lot more maneuverability. BTW, we're looking at having some made but do you know where we could get some? Thanx

 

[Flying Crane]

There is a CHINESE form with the sai :eye-popping: Where, what style, I gots ta know.

I don't know, I just remember seeing it in the context of the Green Dragon Kung Fu studios in Ohio, under Sifu John Allen. If you remember, they used to advertise in Inside Kung Fu, with a huge line of video instruction. I have no idea if they are any good, but that's where I saw it. For all I know, they may no longer be around, I haven't seen their advertisement in years.

In my short tenure with the Shaolin-Do crowd, I was also aware of it there. Again, this is a fairly controversial crowd and I'm not endorsing it one way or the other, but that's another place where I've been aware of it.

My current sifu has also acknowledged that it is included in some Chinese methods. It might have been borrowed back from Okinawa, or might have developed independently, I don't know. It would be interesting to get that background info.

 

[Flying Crane]

2) Make sure that you have a decent pair of sai. It may sound depressing, but the vast majority of people who own sai, have a pair of junk sai that were purchased from Century Sports, AWMA, etc. These are heavy, unbalanced, and if you practice techniques with junk sai, then your technique will be less than ideal.

To make things worse, the use of those overweight, unbalanced sai, is going to rub your hands raw, while generating a lot of fatigue, further contributing to improper technique.

Could you give some guidelines to figure out if my pair are any good? I did get them from AWMA, back in about 1982 or so. They are pretty heavy and solid, but I don't know what to look for to determine if they are poorly balanced or not, or other issues to be aware of. I guess I have always figured that a real weapon, meant to stand up to the rigors of real combat against other real weapons, needed to be somewhat hefty. Of course it's possible to overdue it, but nonetheless, I figured with something like this, a bit heavier is better than too light.

I see sai for sale here in San Francisco Chinatown, and I get the feeling they are also pretty poor quality. The first thing that strikes me is they are very lightweight, at least compared to mine. They just feel rather "insubstantial", for lack of a better term.

We've discussed the value of quality weaponry in the past, and I am defintely willing to spend decent money on something that I know is superior. If I actually get the chance to learn some legitimate sai methods, I would certainly consider spending the money for something good.

 

[Grenadier]

I see sai for sale here in San Francisco Chinatown, and I get the feeling they are also pretty poor quality. The first thing that strikes me is they are very lightweight, at least compared to mine. They just feel rather "insubstantial", for lack of a better term.

Those are either aluminum alloy sai, or the generic "demo" sai, that have a thinner shaft, but are still unbalanced. Stay away from them.

In the end, the weight of the sai isn't quite as important as the balance of them, since an unequal weight distribution is going to force you to compensate with a different set of mechanics. You can actually use the same set of mechanics for a light or a heavy pair of sai, as long as the balance is there.

My primary pair of sai are custom works from Worbington Steele, and while they use the 1/2" shaft, and have a good bit of heft to them, I find that I'm actually less tired after using them for an hour, than I am using one of a pair of Pro Force demo sai, even though the Pro Force sai are significantly lighter.

We've discussed the value of quality weaponry in the past, and I am defintely willing to spend decent money on something that I know is superior. If I actually get the chance to learn some legitimate sai methods, I would certainly consider spending the money for something good.

I've sent you some info, regarding these. I generally steer people to either Shureido, Agena, or Worbington Steele.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This may be a REAL silly question

But where should the point of balance be?

The Sai I have are about 15 years old and I do not remeber where I got them from but they seemed fairly well balanced, but I do not know much about the Sai, certainly not as much as I would like too

However I am certain they did not come form Worbington, Shureido, or Agena

 

[harleyt26]

I am not familiar with Worbington sai but I have several sets of Shureido, Agena and Tokaido.They are all very good sai,the Shureido has the heavier end at the handle as does Tokaido.They flip back to the arm easier.The Agena sai are heavier at the blade end.They strike out harder from the arm.I do not think the Tokaido are still available at least I cannot find them anywhere.But they are weighted like the Shureido but with a wider Japnese style side tines compared to the narrower tines on the Okinawan style Shureido or Agena.These are all made from either steel,black in color,or stainless steel,very shiny similar to chrome.The cheaper sai are usually chrome plated and cast from pot metal.The chrome can flake and peel leaving razor sharp edges of chrome exposed on the sai from weapon to weapon contact.The pot metal can shatter into sharp shards on hard weapon to weapon contact.Not safe for training only for display.
Tom Hodges

 

[Grenadier]

Xue,

To me, the balance point should be where the center of rotation is, when you flip the sai out and back. There should be no need to rotate the forearm at the beginning of the flipping motions. The arm should be moving outwards in a simple motion, as if someone were doing a knife hand strike when flipping the sai out, and almost as if someone were doing a ridge hand strike towards his own body, when flipping the sai back.


Now, there are probably some folks who won't agree with my assessment; that's perfectly fine, since the old adage of "different strokes for different folks" can certainly apply. Some people might consider a "balanced" sai to be one that works for their techniques.

Some people prefer a shaft-heavy pair, since they want more momentum in their shaft strikes, while others may prefer a handle-heavy pair for various reasons. I've tried the shaft-heavy and handle-heavy sai in the past, and ended up with sore hands, as well as altering my technique (which I didn't want to do) in order to fit the sai. They simply don't fit in with the mechanics that I use. One man's food, after all, can easily be another man's poison!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue,

To me, the balance point should be where the center of rotation is, when you flip the sai out and back. There should be no need to rotate the forearm at the beginning of the flipping motions. The arm should be moving outwards in a simple motion, as if someone were doing a knife hand strike when flipping the sai out, and almost as if someone were doing a ridge hand strike towards his own body, when flipping the sai back.


Now, there are probably some folks who won't agree with my assessment; that's perfectly fine, since the old adage of "different strokes for different folks" can certainly apply. Some people might consider a "balanced" sai to be one that works for their techniques.

Some people prefer a shaft-heavy pair, since they want more momentum in their shaft strikes, while others may prefer a handle-heavy pair for various reasons. I've tried the shaft-heavy and handle-heavy sai in the past, and ended up with sore hands, as well as altering my technique (which I didn't want to do) in order to fit the sai. They simply don't fit in with the mechanics that I use. One man's food, after all, can easily be another man's poison!

Thanks You, I will have to check the pair I have and see. I suspect they are not high quality but I do know they will not break when thrown at and going through a board :EG:

 

[Xue Sheng]

I found the old VHS video I bought and it is the same guy (Sai History) as the first link and this is the training bit I was talking about from the Video that made me a bit nervous Sai exercise

It has been ahwile sense I watched this video, I forgot this history bit was on it

EDIT

oops, I forgot to add his name

Mikio Nishiuchi