The rule sets of combat

[Gerry Seymour]

What advantage do you think that gives?

Just saying fight to the death doesn't create mental toughness. Doing tough things does.

The one difference (maybe advantage, depends how you look at it) is if he thinks he HAS to keep going, then he might act with more desperation. Dive in, put his all into the next attack, since he figures he's only got once shot at it. Just a different decision point when it's (perceived as) a life/death situation, than when you can step back and flag the ref.

Gets me thinking: I want a ref with me on the street. Man, I'm just tapping out on everything if he's there.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You know who else has similar radar? People who were bullied as children. Even at eighty years old they can spot a bully a mile before anyone else can.

Now that, I definitely get. Bully-detector is always on, maximum gain.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I think landing an eye poke against a moving target (on purpose) is as hard as getting a wrist lock. It can be done, but reliability gets low. Now, if your hands are already there (struggling with someone, and hand lands on face), adding a poke or gouge should be much more reliable. I think it's as situational as a wrist lock. It can be useful, but only works when it works, and is only worth really trying for when the right opportunity makes it available.

have you seen the "no holds barred fight with X and Y" video on youtube? i think its between two different countries soldiers, they basically agree to have a no holds barred fight and the U.S person just jabs them in the eye and the fights over, they didnt see the eyepoke coming which i dont think most sport people would.

Cant find it, but it at least has its place which no one denied, works better if you dont see it coming. i think you can train it with focus pads maybe?

 

[drop bear]

Pretty much MMA at this point. Most people describe it as MMA and all countries use a similar set of moves. Its basically dirty MMA with the perspective to kill people or at least cause them a mischief. Its literally a hybrid martial art anyway, they dont care about style they just want the most effective system possible at what they want it for.

The USMC martial arts program i think is cited as having something from literally everything in it.

Yeah. But there is a difference between sharing similar techniques and sharing similar development.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10156423470644993

I mean there are statistically better techniques as well.

 

[drop bear]

have you seen the "no holds barred fight with X and Y" video on youtube? i think its between two different countries soldiers, they basically agree to have a no holds barred fight and the U.S person just jabs them in the eye and the fights over, they didnt see the eyepoke coming which i dont think most sport people would.

Cant find it, but it at least has its place which no one denied, works better if you dont see it coming. i think you can train it with focus pads maybe?

Ok. Anytime you want I will let you come down to my gym. We will put face masks on and you can have an eye gouge off with a boxer who has no training in eye gouging and see how you go.

 

[drop bear]

The one difference (maybe advantage, depends how you look at it) is if he thinks he HAS to keep going, then he might act with more desperation. Dive in, put his all into the next attack, since he figures he's only got once shot at it. Just a different decision point when it's (perceived as) a life/death situation, than when you can step back and flag the ref.

Gets me thinking: I want a ref with me on the street. Man, I'm just tapping out on everything if he's there.

That is not how toughness works. You don't just decide at the time you are tough because the stakes are high.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

have you seen the "no holds barred fight with X and Y" video on youtube? i think its between two different countries soldiers, they basically agree to have a no holds barred fight and the U.S person just jabs them in the eye and the fights over, they didnt see the eyepoke coming which i dont think most sport people would.

Cant find it, but it at least has its place which no one denied, works better if you dont see it coming. i think you can train it with focus pads maybe?

Think of it this way: it's like a jab, but more precise. It's subject to all the blocks, parries, slips, and head-bobs that can be used against a jab. Unlike a jab, it matters precisely where it lands, so any head movement is likely to be dramatically more effective.

Personally, I think it's more reliable to just punch them, in most cases. Where you can surprise them enough, maybe it's a reasonable tool, but if I can hit them cleanly by surprise, why not just hit them?

 

[skribs]

That is not how toughness works. You don't just decide at the time you are tough because the stakes are high.

In a lot of cases, you do. If I'm in class and something feels off, I take care of it because I don't want it to get worse. If I'm in a tournament and I get kicked and something feels off, I will continue until the tournament is over.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That is not how toughness works. You don't just decide at the time you are tough because the stakes are high.

I'm not talking about toughness. I'm talking about desperation. MMA guys are most likely tougher, but they have the option of pausing/ending the fight via ref.

 

[drop bear]

In a lot of cases, you do. If I'm in class and something feels off, I take care of it because I don't want it to get worse. If I'm in a tournament and I get kicked and something feels off, I will continue until the tournament is over.

But you can just stop in a tournament.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not talking about toughness. I'm talking about desperation. MMA guys are most likely tougher, but they have the option of pausing/ending the fight via ref.

And so if you remove the option of stopping then the fight will probably go to the tougher guy.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And so if you remove the option of stopping then the fight will probably go to the tougher guy.

Yes.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Ok. Anytime you want I will let you come down to my gym. We will put face masks on and you can have an eye gouge off with a boxer who has no training in eye gouging and see how you go.

See my post before that where i put "if you can jab well you should be able to eye gouge jab decently" how ever if i have practiced eye jabs i would put the advantage to myself for it being instinct to go for the eyes when available where as the boxer might not, this is in addition to the rest of the fighting skills like distance, timing, position control etc.

I would put the advantage to anyone woth all the necessary fighting skills plus the dirty tricks being put in their cirrcumlem and being as instinctual to them as a jab is to a boxer. Eye jabs are a pretty good distraction as well all things considered and you can move your open hand faster than a closed one.

and obviously if you put mask on the threat is eliminated, its like wearing a cup for groin strikes and obviously no one is going to agree to a death match in this day and age or allow one. equal to wearing full steel plate and having a validity test for a 3inch blade as a weapon test, so it will change the reaction given and ultimatly not give a fully accurate representation of use. Just as no one would fight someone in full plate with a 3 inch blade, no one is going to eye strike someone with a mask on. I wont punch someone with a hard helmet on at all or its going to be "bye bye hand". Completely unrelated but some people have punched people with helmets on.

Personally, I think it's more reliable to just punch them, in most cases. Where you can surprise them enough, maybe it's a reasonable tool, but if I can hit them cleanly by surprise, why not just hit them?

I could agree in part, i think its got more validity as a fight stopper than a groin strike though as you can actually in a best case scenario (for you) permanently remove function of that persons eye, rather than of something not relevant to a fight like the genitals.

Its something which you should at least have built into your memory as a thing rather than going "oh we can do this i forgot", pretty good distraction as well all things considered even if you don't land or intend to.

Just in general better to have it built into your memory you can hit the groin, hit the eyes, slap the ears, bend and break the fingers etc than not.

 

[Flying Crane]

have you seen the "no holds barred fight with X and Y" video on youtube? i think its between two different countries soldiers, they basically agree to have a no holds barred fight and the U.S person just jabs them in the eye and the fights over, they didnt see the eyepoke coming which i dont think most sport people would.

Cant find it, but it at least has its place which no one denied, works better if you dont see it coming. i think you can train it with focus pads maybe?

I’ve not seen this, but I will take your word for it.

But this does not translate into a real fight. In this competition, I assume either party can concede the loss, and the fight ends. One guy gets a nasty eye poke, and he throws in the towel. Everyone goes home, and he gets to see the doctor.

If you are getting mugged and you get poked in the eye, do you get to concede the loss and go home? Maybe the guy will proceed to beat you into the dust. Maybe you keep on fighting, inspite of the eye poke.

Once again, the effectiveness of the eye poke depends on a lot of factors.

 

[drop bear]

Yes.

And toughness is developed during training.

There is this idea that if you train for no rules life or death you will be able to handle no rules life or death better.

But I think training with rules increases the pressure and intensity you can train under. Builds a better level of general toughness. Builds a better ability to handle life or death engagements. Than whatever the alternative methods are.

 

[drop bear]

See my post before that where i put "if you can jab well you should be able to eye gouge jab decently" how ever if i have practiced eye jabs i would put the advantage to myself for it being instinct to go for the eyes when available where as the boxer might not, this is in addition to the rest of the fighting skills like distance, timing, position control etc.

I can almost Guarantee that you are not training eye gouges efficiently and that this boxing experiment would show that.

 

[skribs]

I’ve not seen this, but I will take your word for it.

But this does not translate into a real fight. In this competition, I assume either party can concede the loss, and the fight ends. One guy gets a nasty eye poke, and he throws in the towel. Everyone goes home, and he gets to see the doctor.

If you are getting mugged and you get poked in the eye, do you get to concede the loss and go home? Maybe the guy will proceed to beat you into the dust. Maybe you keep on fighting, inspite of the eye poke.

Once again, the effectiveness of the eye poke depends on a lot of factors.

There's a difference between the conscious decision to continue fighting for your life when you've had a few seconds to process it, and the few seconds of "what the hell just hit me?" That few seconds is where the person who just got poked is most vulnerable.

 

[drop bear]

A mate of mine got eye poked in this fight. Couldn't see out of it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And toughness is developed during training.

There is this idea that if you train for no rules life or death you will be able to handle no rules life or death better.

But I think training with rules increases the pressure and intensity you can train under. Builds a better level of general toughness. Builds a better ability to handle life or death engagements. Than whatever the alternative methods are.

Some portion of toughness is developed in training. I think some portion may be inherent in a person's personality, too. But, yeah, building more toughness does give an edge in those situations.

It sounds like you're trying to argue something with me, which makes me think you've misunderstood something in my recent posts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can almost Guarantee that you are not training eye gouges efficiently and that this boxing experiment would show that.

Is there a good way to train them efficiently (the pokes, not gouges, since that seems to be the point of this test)?

And I'd argue this test isn't a good way to test the skill, because the other guy knows a poke is coming. It worked in that contest with the SEAL because he surprised the other guy.