The right Martial Art

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Kyosanim, Mar 27, 2010.

  1. Kyosanim

    Kyosanim Orange Belt

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    Hello I am a first degree black belt in TKD, and I am looking to try a new art. I have looked at judo a lot and it looks promising though I'm not so sure its the right art for me. I am hoping the good people on here will be able to help me figure out if this is the right art for me, or if I should try Jujutsu instead.

    I want whatever I learn to be applicable to self defense, and grappling sounds like it would be a nice change of pace.

    What are your thoughts? What are the real differences with judo and jujutsu?
    What are their goals, and what is the focus of both? TKD focus's on improving character, and on striking. What is their focus?

    Is judo just a sport?
     
  2. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Hi Kyosanim,

     
  3. Kyosanim

    Kyosanim Orange Belt

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    Thank you I found this very helpful. The way I see things I really only have half a black belt without knowing how to grapple well, and the information you have provided will be a great help.
     
  4. Shifu Steve

    Shifu Steve Green Belt

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    While I think that if you have an interest in grappling you should pursue that interest I would say you don't need to become proficient in a new system to consider yourself a "full" blackbelt.

    There are a variety of posts on this site about what it means to be a blackbelt but I think you're more concerned with the fact that you lack grappling skills. I would say there are a couple ways you could approach this. The first would be to gain a good understanding of the vulnerabilities of your chosen style and extrapolate your knowledge of it to address those issues. For instance we are most vulnerable to something defensive when we are engaged in something offensive. For someone to grapple you they need to make contact so range and distance is a consideration. There are also options for you if someone does make contact that don't necessitate you learning to be a "grappler."

    Another choice is to learn some basic technique in a grappling situation that enables you to get out of the situation and gives you something to work with if you find yourself there. So the idea here is have a few things that work for you when somebody makes contact that help you to transition back to where your strengths are.

    Then you could always learn a system that teaches you to grapple. I'm all for being well rounded and of course learning a system of Ju-Jitsu or Judo is a rewarding experience in itself. It also will teach you concepts that you may not be totally familiar with. Personally, I studied a style of Ju-Jitsu that is closer in method to Wally Jay's Small Circle Ju-Jitsu. I thoroughly enjoyed it and apply the principles learned in my training daily. But like Chris said, your options are limited to what's within range of you and where you will receive the best training. Even if you have "Ju-Jitsu America" next door to you it doesn't mean you should train there.

    Good luck.
     
  5. Draven

    Draven Green Belt

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    There is a slight difference between judo & Jujutsu, in that Budo & Bujutsu are different in goals. Kano wanted Judo to be a means of teaching a philosophical frame of thought (Zen like Taoist Philosophy) the term -Do is a obscure meaning of "Way" better translated as "Way to enlightenment" that said there are different variants (off shoots of judo) that are more focused on sport, police arrest methods (submission focused) and another off shoot that see it more as a combat art then philosophy tool.

    That said judo even when used as a philosophy tool is less philosophical then the concept applies & the techniques of judo & jujutsu are the same thing. Judo deals allot with unbalancing and using an opponent's energy against them. The easist way to explain it is this if someone grabs your wrisy and pulls you toward them, instead of pulling away you push them back; so that their energy is added to your own and they fall back onto the ground. By contrast if that person pushs you, you need only pull them to take them with you as you fall or pull them and step out the way so that they fall down. Which is the same basic technical format as most all forms of jujutsu...
     
  6. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Sorry, Draven, there seems to be a bit of confusion in your post here.

     
  7. Draven

    Draven Green Belt

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    Well Chris the term -Do is Japanese for Tao. Zen (Chen in Chinese) Buddhist philosophy and Taoist (Doist) philosophy is very similar as well as Zen/Chen Buddhism was influenced by Taoist thought. There are many splinter forms of judo, Olympic/Sport Judo for example often focuses on competition rules and ignores methods like atemi-waza (striking) or Kodoro (mental/philosophical training).

    I suggest you read...
    Jujutsu become Judo by Jugaro Kano
    og specific note...
    Judo:
    [​IMG]

    Tao:
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Well, to get technical, "Do" is the on'yomi pronunciation of the Chinese "Tao". The Japanese language has usually at least two pronunciations of each character, in this case "michi" and "do". "Michi" here would be classed as kun'yomi, which literally means "meaning reading", and "do" would be on'yomi, or "sounding reading". This refers to the pronunciation that the Japanese thought the Chinese had for the character, whereas kun'yomi is the pronunciation for the natural Japanese concept that the character refers to. So the meaning of "Do" and "Tao" are the same, in context as in taoism it has religious overtones, but that is not necessarily always there. In the context of simply "path, or street", it doesn't. Good try though!

    As to different "styles" of Judo, I thought that was dealt with rather well the last time you said such a thing.... For a reminder, check the thread "Diffrence between Brazilian JiuJitsu, Japanese JiuJitsu and Judo", from December last year...

    I like the excerpt you linked to, read the book a long time ago. Of course, you missed this part just above your quoted section:

    "After a thorough study of the subject, I discerned an a1l-pervasive principle: to make the most efficient use of mental and physical energy. With this principle in mind, I again reviewed all the methods of attack and defense I had learned, retaining only those that were in accordance with the principle. Those not in accord with it I rejected, and in their place I substituted techniques in which the principle was correctly applied. The resulting body of technique, which I named judo to distinguish it from its predecessor, is what is taught at the Kodokan."

    That, by the way, would be an example of the base philosophy I was refering to. And you may note that Jigoro Kano (rather than "Jugaro".... I'll assume a misprint, shall I? I mean, it was right there in the page you linked to... and while we're at it, the term used for the spiritual training is kokoro, literally meaning heart. It's the bottom half of the character for "nin", you may have seen it...) references nothing to do with Taoism, Zen, or anything other than his martial philosophy of "making the most efficient use of mental and physical energy". That, you will find, is the philosophy of Judo. Philosophy is not necessarily a spiritual ideal, it is simply a cogent system of beliefs which give grounding.

    You may also notice the very end there, where he clearly states "The resulting body of techniques...I names judo to distinguish it from it's predecessor". Again, you seem to have made my point for me. Thank you for that.

    PS I like the kanji, by the way, especially the first one. Very nice.
     
  9. Draven

    Draven Green Belt

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    Except that the Tao/-Do symbol is the exact same symbol and refers to "specific philosophical docturine" i.e. the difference between being translated as THE WAY as opposed to "a way" as opposed to houkou (direction) or jutsu (art). You pretty much proved what I said about Judo by "less philosophical then the concept applies." Philosophy is a lot of sitting around and talking, judo is more of a means exercising principles rather then discussing them.

    I'm by no means saying that judo doesn't have techniques or that those techniques don't have purpose. I'm not saying that judo & jujutsu aren't the same a physical level however Kano did accept a certain level of teaching a guiding philosophical principle as part of judo.

    Look at it this way, Chen Buddhism was influenced by Taoism, except Buddhist have different ideas and even Taoists have different "denominations" of Taoism. In all forms of Taoism the term Tao refers to "The Way" more so then "a way." The difference is "The Way" is considered to be of a higher, spiritual, meaning as opposed to simply a variance in technique or docturine. Now if Taoism is "The Way" considered in a form of "absolutes" we run into a allot of fighting over whats the right absolute and which isn't. However, all Taoists branchs have a far more civil way of dealing with it and declare that "The Way" is a person matter between the self and higher ideology. Thats why it was adapted so readily by Chen (Zen) Buddhist. Judo isn't an ideological absolute like a religion but simply an ideological docturine.

    Tell what read this article by Kano, you'll not there is a specifc reference to an ideological doctuine and thats by no means a specific area of study. However Kito-Ryu Jujutsu does hold its roots in Taoist
    The Contribution of Judo to Education


     
  10. pmosiun1

    pmosiun1 Orange Belt

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    Yes, judo is a sport. The goal of judo is to throw your opponent off balance. There are some grappling too.
     
  11. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Really? We're keeping this going? Okay...

    But with that said, we have gone too far off topic, and it's time to stop. If you want to argue some more, maybe starting a new thread would be a good idea.

    Oh, and pmosiun1, out of interest, what do you call throws, locks, and chokes if not grappling? The idea of grappling only being on the ground is a new idea from the advent of MMA, but it's origins are from the techniques standing up. It's all grappling, with some striking in the self defence kata and higher levels.
     
  12. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Judo is great and has a lot of practical things to recommend it. First, you are very likely able to find a good instructor near you. Judo is almost as widespread as TKD, and good schools are rampant.

    At the same time, many of these schools are run as clubs, and many of these clubs are run as non-profits. What this means is that you can often find quality judo instruction for a very reasonable price. This makes Judo instruction a very good value in many places.

    Judo also encourages live randori and there is an established competitive element for those who wish to partake. Some people love this. Whether the school focuses more on sport or not will vary depending upon the school. Nothing for that but do the legwork yourself. Check out your local schools to see if one fits.

    Don't discount other grappling arts, either. BJJ is big and growing. You'll see some overlap with Judo. Consider BJJ and Judo as cousins in grappling, sharing the same roots. Sambo is good if you can find it, as are CaCC and Folk Wrestling. Sambo is a hybrid art also derived from Judo and developed in Russia while Catch Wrestling and Folk Wrestling come from more Western roots.

    Best thing I would recommend is to look around your area, don't count anything out, take advantage of free introductory lessons and find the school that best suits your personality and goals.
     
  13. Xinglu

    Xinglu Black Belt

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    If you're going to get caught up in semantics and argue the chinese terms, at the very least get the terms right.

    佛教 fójiào is Buddhism
    禅宗 chánzōng is Zen Buddhism, or 禅 chán for short, but only in context as it also means meditation (which may or may not be buddhist in nature let alone Chán sect).
    道教 dàojiào is Taoism/Daoism.

    Furthermore, you are confused. Fójiào (buddhism) and dàojiào have very few similarities.

    Chánzōng does because it is the result of the influence dàojiào had on fójiào. But that is it. As it is Chánzōng barely resembles either spiritualities anymore.

    Other things dào (道) means and is commonly used for:

    direction / way / road / path / principle / truth / morality / reason / skill / method / to say / to speak / to talk / classifier for long thin stretches, rivers, roads etc.

    Knowing this, can't you see how silly a dogmatic argument on chinese meanings of characters is? It's all about context of the characters.
     
  14. Xinglu

    Xinglu Black Belt

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    To the OP, Steve Just above me here has given you some sound advice, I would take it. Somethings to consider is how to transition your TKD into grappling. My personal opinion is that TKD is very strong in long range and medium range combat, but weak inside and grappling. Judo might offer you a little more in regards to addressing both of those (BJJ is great for grappling unless you find an instructor willing to teach inside fighting [while standing Which in my experience is getting harder to find]. Judo might suit your needs better. I personally chose BJJ because my inside game is addressed, what I wanted was ground game if the worst should happen. But even then, I'm not looking to be a ground fighter. I was looking to protect myself from ground fighters, by learning not how to defeat them on the ground, but how to either not go down, or how to escape if I am taken down. In such a situation I want to play to my strengths not theirs.

    Something I would like to point out though. Your hyungs have a lot of joint locks and throws in them, they are just not readily apparent. If you're not being taught them then something like Judo or JJ might help you see/learn them. Either way, don't sell yourself short as a BB now your real learning begins. I challenge you to take each movement in each hyung and establish five different applications: e.g. joint manipulation/throw/neutralization/etc. Pretty soon you will be amazed at how much material you already have!
     
  15. Balrog

    Balrog Master of Arts

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    A suggestion -

    As a First Degree, you are still a beginner in your chosen martial art of Taekwondo. I would suggest that you continue to put your emphasis there, much like a major in college. Cross-train with BJJ or judo, but let that be like an elective course which supports the major and makes you a more well-rounded student.
     
  16. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Purple Belt

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    Shelf the terminology and history for a while. Check out the available teachers. Remember that the teacher and your classmates are going to do a lot more to shape your training experience than is the kanji, Pinyin translation, or any of that other stuff. That's all interesting stuff to learn about at some point. But your direct interaction with the style is going to be through the filter of teacher and classmates. Find a school that offers a training methodology you like. That's paramount.
     
  17. shane

    shane Yellow Belt

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    Alternative is to discover some rudimentary method in a grappling position that endows you to get out of the position and presents you certain thing to work with if you find yourself there. So the concept here is have a couple of things that work for you when a famous person makes communicate that help you to transition back to where your power are.
     
  18. Guardian

    Guardian Black Belt

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    You know partner, I learned a long time ago, you can take all the recommendations in the world but the bottom line is, what is the right style/system for you is the one you choose or want. I can't say or choose or recommend it for you. You must find it out for yourself.123
     

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