The Proper Horse Stance?

punisher73

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Hello, The HORSE stance is just a training position to develop the body...it is also can be use from one movement to another...

NO one fights in a Horse stance....Do you see professioal Boxes, Kick Boxers, JUDO, or mix martial artist fight this way in the rings? or streets? using the horse stances? as their main techinques?

Wrestlers have a low ground stance that looks like a horse stance....because making your body lower helps from preventing been thrown or taken down....MY daughter wrestles in High School.

Just view Horse stances as a training position..and do it the way YOUR teacher wants you to do it!

Do Cowboys love the horse stances?

Stay in a horse stance? your legs will get kick all the time!

Aloha, Mules stance could be consider the same thing?

PS: most kempo/ kenpo schools teach you to fight like a boxers style - more up right- for mobility

Yes, I see boxers use the horse stance all the time. Again, do not misunderstand 'stance training' and working basics from a stance to develop it as fighting that way. Here is a picture of a boxer using a "horse stance" You will see them use it all the time to get lower under a punch or while in close for power.
610x.jpg


Here is an example of a TRAINING horse stance
horseStance.jpg


here is a picture with SGM Parker posing in a horse stance with Elvis, notice the difference between the actual stance and how people like to elaborate it and turn it into something else.
presleyed.gif


Yes, grappling styles use a version of the horse stance as well because it lowers the center of gravity to help initiate throws and counter them as well.

There are many uses for a horse stance and there is a time and place for it's use as well. Understanding the use of stances is one of the key areas in learning to defend yourself.
 

Flying Crane

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I've see photos of classes lined up, but never participation. Most have figured out that Mitose was using Chow to build his own creds as he did with others, and Chow said the same.

I don't find the lack of classtime photos very compelling; one would be hard pressed to find such a photo of myself with any of my teachers, some of whom I've been with for over a decade. There are certainly photos with me and my teachers, and in groups and stuff, but not much would come up of actual classtime or training time, even with the modern digital cameras that make it easy to satisfy that instant gratification photo fix. One could make the accusation that I was simply trying to pad my credentials by setting up opportunities to be photographed with these men who I claim to be my teachers, but it simply wouldn't be true. We just aren't in the habit of documenting training time thru photos or video. It just doesn't happen among the teachers and groups I train with. So I guess the fact that training photos with Mr. Chow and Mr. Mitose don't seem to be in existence isn't something that I find to be unusual, especially for that period in history.


Mitose never ever displayed anything that resembled significant training,

I've heard others say the opposite.

and Mr. Parker often said, "Mitose had nothing." He was a con man, among other things, and that has significant proof.

I don't think anyone disputes Mr. Mitose's legal and criminal troubles. But that doesn't automatically mean that he never taught Mr. Chow.

I've read the Blackbelt Magazine interview with Mr. Chow from a few years ago. I know that's been discussed here before and a lot of people weren't real happy with it for various reasons. But in some ways that interview shed some light on Mr. Chow's personality.

From that interview, it seemed that Mr. Chow held on to some bitterness from the past. Whether he was like this throughout his life is something that I obviously don't know. But from that interview it seems like he certainly had that potential. He said some pretty derogatory things about Mr. Parker, indicating that Mr. Parker was never very good and didn't learn much, and he left Mr. Chow as a "purple" belt. This is obviously not true, as purple belt didn't even exist at that time. But the spirit of the comment is also suspect, as the comment was meant to cast doubt upon Mr. Parker's knowledge and abilities. It looks like Mr. Chow was still bitter over the success that Mr. Parker had, while he himself still resided in relative obscurity. So Mr. Chow's comments about Mr. Parker need to be taken with a grain of salt.

I think it's possible that Mr. Chow's comments about Mr. Mitose may also need to be taken with the same grain of salt. Perhaps Mr. Chow became embarrassed by Mr. Mitose's actions, pushing his religious activities, his questionable business activities, and his ultimate criminal problems. Given the personality that Mr. Chow exhibited in that interview, I could certainly see him taking steps to distance himself from Mr. Mitose, and downplaying and minimizing whatever relationship they may have had. The most obvious way to do this would be to deny ever being Mr. Mitose's student, and instead choosing to emphasize relationships he may have had with other teachers. Just because Mr. Chow made statements that he wasn't Mitose's student, doesn't mean it's true. After all, Mr. Chow also stated that Mr. Parker learned very little and was only a "purple" belt. Should we take that as truth?

Having read the Blackbelt interview, I guess I simply take any statements that Mr. Chow may have made about other people with a little salt.

For whatever it's worth, I'm a notorious "find the old guys, buy them dinner, and get them talking" fan of old kenpo tales...love the history, and prefer to get it form the horses mouths whenever I can. From more than one Chow lineage guy who has trained with him, Chow was taught kung-fu by his father (I'll press for specifics next time I see one of the guys). He and his half-brother (Chow-Hoon) were often the enforcers of their fathers will for debt and loan issues, so he got a lot of practical experience from early on collecting for his pops.

He got a form or so from Mitose, but tended to ditch them, preferring to train short, quick combinations...an influence seen today in the systems of his students: SD Techs in Parker system and it's offshoots, Punch Counters and such from kaju. He used numbers instead of names ("Number 22"), and would just train the hell out of them. Strictly, and very hard. Kung-fu, karate, and boxing entries, jujutsu takedowns and finishes, combined with more hitting the guy while he was downed. An approach of his own making, born out of his training and back-alley experiences.

D.

I would certainly be interested in hearing any further details you might uncover as to the specific system he may have learned from his father.

It seems to me that in the Chinese culture, a family art is something held dear and is seen to be very important. If his father taught him a method, that would have remained a strong influence in what he did and what he taught. It's not likely it would have been tossed aside for something else. So if his father was a kungfu guy and he passed in on to William, I would expect that William would have maintained that method on some recognizable level even if he innovated his own approach to training.

And again, why would he have settled on the term "kenpo" to describe what he did if it was a mix of kungfu and Danzan Ryu jujitsu?
 

searcher

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I just re-read Mr. Parker's 2nd Infinite Insights book and he saidit should be just wider than shoulder width. I suggest you read the entire series.
 

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

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I just re-read Mr. Parker's 2nd Infinite Insights book and he saidit should be just wider than shoulder width. I suggest you read the entire series.

No idea who that's aimed at, but there's some outright comedy in the statement if it's targeted at Doc...who's in it, and helped type up and organize the content.

But you are effectively correct in noticing the relationship. Notice in the Elvis Picture...Elvis is down in a deep side-fighting horse. Mr. Parker is higher up in his stance. Deep horses look cool, but kill mobility.

By the way, if'n you need to make 200-300 bucks, put your copy of II #2 on e-bay; they are currently out of print, and in high demand.
 

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

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I would certainly be interested in hearing any further details you might uncover as to the specific system he may have learned from his father.

It seems to me that in the Chinese culture, a family art is something held dear and is seen to be very important. If his father taught him a method, that would have remained a strong influence in what he did and what he taught. It's not likely it would have been tossed aside for something else. So if his father was a kungfu guy and he passed in on to William, I would expect that William would have maintained that method on some recognizable level even if he innovated his own approach to training.

And again, why would he have settled on the term "kenpo" to describe what he did if it was a mix of kungfu and Danzan Ryu jujitsu?

Trying to find some like-minded, kenpo/kempo-based eclectic polynesian martial artists is a bit of a challenge. Found some up here in Nor Cal, one of whom was a student of Chows in the islands, and is the inheritor of one of his direct lineages, from Chow's brother. Super nice, very mellow man. I see him at organization metings for quarterly business; I'll ask when I see him.

BTW...tell Mr. S to heal.
 

searcher

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No idea who that's aimed at, but there's some outright comedy in the statement if it's targeted at Doc...who's in it, and helped type up and organize the content.

But you are effectively correct in noticing the relationship. Notice in the Elvis Picture...Elvis is down in a deep side-fighting horse. Mr. Parker is higher up in his stance. Deep horses look cool, but kill mobility.

By the way, if'n you need to make 200-300 bucks, put your copy of II #2 on e-bay; they are currently out of print, and in high demand.


I was never directing it to Doc nor would I EVER.


And I stress EVER, no NEVER would I question Doc.
 

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

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I was never directing it to Doc nor would I EVER.


And I stress EVER, no NEVER would I question Doc.

Yeah...questioning Doc is ground for carefully treading. If you don't make inquiries, he figgers you're dense, lost, or a clingon without a brain. But when he takes a stance on something, it's cuz he can show you. In, like, a minute. And if you're lucky, it hurts.
 

Flying Crane

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Trying to find some like-minded, kenpo/kempo-based eclectic polynesian martial artists is a bit of a challenge. Found some up here in Nor Cal, one of whom was a student of Chows in the islands, and is the inheritor of one of his direct lineages, from Chow's brother. Super nice, very mellow man. I see him at organization metings for quarterly business; I'll ask when I see him.

Thanks Dave, I'd appreciate hearing what you find out.

BTW...tell Mr. S to heal.

Not sure what yer saying here?
 

Flying Crane

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Mr. Sumner posted on his San Jose site that he's down with pneumonia.


Ah, yes it's true. I only found out on Tuesday when he wasn't in class. pneumonia's a real bummer.

I suspect he was sick as far back as last Thursday when he also wasn't in class, altho I wasn't told why. I actually ended up teaching class that night as our Godan also was unable to be in class and the other Shodans in attendance asked me to do the honors.

I'll let him know you wish him well. Thanks.
 

Doc

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I just re-read Mr. Parker's 2nd Infinite Insights book and he saidit should be just wider than shoulder width. I suggest you read the entire series.

Infinite Insight is not correct, or even what he taught everyone. Keep in mind the books were written with very broad strokes to appeal to everyone in the arts. Lots of ideas, but very few specifics, and even some of the specifics are either off, or have been misinterpreted sir. Cool.
 
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Ronin74

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In any case, I needed to be sure since it seems like some techniques may differ slighty, depending on who they were learned from. That said, what is the proper alignment/positioning for the horse stance? I recall it being low to the ground, but with the feet probably about 1-1/2 body with apart, and facing slightly outward. Is this correct?
Wow. Maybe I should elaborate more on my question.

The reason I was asking was STRICTLY for training purposes. Personally, I don't fight from a horse stance. However, the leg conditioning it provided was incredibly beneficial to me. When I first did Kenpo, the rate at which my legs were strengthened got me to the point where my kicking was as versatile as my punching.

We had kicking sets we did from a horse stance, and that helped lay a good foundation for me in regards to leg work. Do I fight with it? No. If it matters, I train self-defense techniques from neutral positions, such as standing or sitting, and fighting (sparring) from a boxer's stance, with a few modifcations here and there.

The reason I mentioned lineage was because we had a few other people who came through the school who had done Kenpo elsewhere, and there were always these slight differences that were usually attributed to their prior instructors. It's not to say they were wrong, but sometimes, things change where it branches off, and I was looking for something close to how I was trained.

So far, I'm trying it with my legs a little more than shoulder's width apart, and my spine in neutral alignment. It feels comfortable, but right now, I'm just trying to get used to staying in it for a good period of time.
 

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I was never directing it to Doc nor would I EVER.


And I stress EVER, no NEVER would I question Doc.

I absolutely would. If he has half the knowledge that he presents to have here, he should have some outstanding answers, and would relish clarifying to an earnestly interested party if it was a well considered question.

I love when my students question me - if they do not, then they aren't thinking.
 

kidswarrior

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Actually sir, a Horse Stance may not be the preferred method to begin a confrontation for obvious reasons, but that does not mean it is not used in and during an encounter.
Doc, why can you always say something -- and well -- before I can even fully formulate the thought? :duh: It gets annoying. :D
 

Danjo

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I've see photos of classes lined up, but never participation. Most have figured out that Mitose was using Chow to build his own creds as he did with others, and Chow said the same. At best they were short term collaborators, while Chow often boasted that Mitose messed over so many people that he needed "bodyguards," but Chow himself said, "Mitose need bodyguards, I don't need bodyguards, I beat up Mitose's bodyguards."

Mitose never ever displayed anything that resembled significant training, and Mr. Parker often said, "Mitose had nothing." He was a con man, among other things, and that has significant proof.

Here is what Chow told Sijo Emperado: "Hey Bruddah, Prof. Mitose just promoted me to tenth degree, So I'm promoting you to fifth degree"

According to Sijo Chow was Mitose's student. At least in name.

What Chow said of Mitose's ability? He was once asked what he had learned from Mitose and his response was, "Kinny garden stuff."

Chow also took Emperado to Mitose to get his teaching certification. But from what both of them said, Mitose taught very hard style basic stuff that had no flow to it.
 

Doc

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Here is what Chow told Sijo Emperado: "Hey Bruddah, Prof. Mitose just promoted me to tenth degree, So I'm promoting you to fifth degree"

According to Sijo Chow was Mitose's student. At least in name.

What Chow said of Mitose's ability? He was once asked what he had learned from Mitose and his response was, "Kinny garden stuff."

Chow also took Emperado to Mitose to get his teaching certification. But from what both of them said, Mitose taught very hard style basic stuff that had no flow to it.
Seems like the more things change, the more they stay the same. It was clearly a symbiotic relationship. Chow couldn't read or write and was not very articulate, so Mitose was the mouthpiece. Mitose was articulate, and slick as flu snot. Chow used him to handle things and business he could not, and in turn Mitose got to claim Chow as a student. Neither I or anyone else I know that saw Mitose in action considered him to be either knowledgeable or especially physically capable. Pathetic would be kind.
 

K-man

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Kiba Dachi “Horse Stance”, Shiko Dachi “Sumo Stance” are seen in many of the kata of Okinawan GoJu, which is a close quarter fighting art. Not used as much for sparring, but still effective. They are used more for close in fighting.

These two stances are often confused, or at least the names are. 'Kiba Dachi' or Uchi Hachi Dachi has the feet facing forward as in the diagram in a previous post. Shiko Dachi has the feet facing out and the knees pushed out and is much lower.

horseStance.jpg

This picture posted by punisher73 is more like Shiko Dachi as the feet are pointing outwards. Also, it is much wider than the normal 2 shoulder widths. This stance is closer to three. The other photos are impossible to judge as you can't see the direction of the feet.
I use Shiko dachi from time to time but rarely Kiba Dachi.
 

BonnieBot

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I'm brand new to karate and am wondering about the feet forward. It feels unnatural to me. How long does it take for this to go away? :)
 

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