The problem with "traditional" martial arts part 3

Headhunter

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The truth is there's no problem with traditional martial arts the only problem is what certain people have with it. Not sparring might not be a problem for someone. On the other hand sparring might be a problem for some. It's all about the person. Just because /you/ don't like certain aspects doesn't make it a problem it just means that's not for you and there's nothing wrong with that we can't all like everything
 

drop bear

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The truth is there's no problem with traditional martial arts the only problem is what certain people have with it. Not sparring might not be a problem for someone. On the other hand sparring might be a problem for some. It's all about the person. Just because /you/ don't like certain aspects doesn't make it a problem it just means that's not for you and there's nothing wrong with that we can't all like everything

And that is the problem with martial arts. Results don't matter.

If the above was described about medicine for example. People would be horrified.
 

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I know nothing about Wing Chung other than what I have read so I can't comment on that.

However Traditional arts are what they are. I am of the opinion that if anyone has a problem with them then stay away from them.

Any person that sets up a you tube site with content is going to open themselves to flak that the nature of the internet. Also just as a thought if that author is teaching where he is or was taught there could it be he is taking flak for that as Taiwan and mainland China are umm not best of friends. It may be nothing but just a thought
 

Kung Fu Wang

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There are 3 different ways to train the traditional MA.

1. Combat - punch out fast, pull back fast.
2. Health - punch out slow, pull back fast.
3. Performance - punch out fast, post and freeze, pull back fast.

Unfortunately, some people use the heath or performance training method to train combat. I can never believe that if you punch slow all your life, one day in fighting you can suddenly punch fast. Also if you are used to freeze your punch at the end, you will never be a good fighter.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Even if the students want to legitimately take each other or their instructor.

Then they would have to develop concepts that facilitate that.
I didn't follow your words entirely on that, DB, but I think I got what you meant. If not, correct me.

Yeah, they'd have to embrace the student (and others within the school, or I'm not sure it helps much) actually trying to best each other - really testing whether they can control each other, including the instructor. I've yet to have a student who could best me more than momentarily, but I keep hoping. I'm not badass enough to believe I'll never get a student who can't do better than me, especially if they have some significant training before they get to me. Iv'e had a few students and partners who genuinely tried on occasion. When I visit elsewhere, I often get that taste of being outclassed (like being on the ground with Tony). I think it'd be healthy to have a student (or more!) who know they have areas where they are better than me, so long as they are still getting what they need in other areas.
 

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Winning is achieving your objective.

Your concept within a martial arts school is what I think fosters the issues OP has mentioned.

People encourage and enable failure to maintain the piece.
I think this goes to the idea of defining the term. For some exercises, "winning" is figuring out how to activate a technique. Sometimes, it's helping your partner figure that out. And sometimes it's stopping that bastard from doing what he wants before he does the same to you. Then having a beer. Beer is always winning.
 

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And that is the problem with martial arts. Results don't matter.

If the above was described about medicine for example. People would be horrified.
While I tend to agree on this, DB, for some folks the outcome isn't the point. There are folks (quite a lot of them, I suspect but cannot establish) who really just want to do some cool stuff and have fun with it. For those folks, sparring or not sparring doesn't really change things.
 

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Winning is achieving your objective.
If this is your definition then I have no problem with it. The problem I have is maybe with the word winning. It has connotations that I don't apply to self defense. But yes to achieve your objective is the goal.
Your concept within a martial arts school is what I think fosters the issues OP has mentioned.
Your free to explain why you think that, but I disagree.
My concept is that beating someone up, stabbing them through the heart or putting a bullet in their skull has consequences and you better think that one through before you do it. It's a fact of life and it ain't no excuse for crap fighting skills. If that is the only option then so be it, but you better make dam sure it's the only option and don't let your MMA macho BS attitude put you in a situation where you don't look for those other options. being behind bars, not seeing your family is a hell of a price to pay for being arrogant.
 

hoshin1600

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And that is the problem with martial arts. Results don't matter.
Maybe but maybe not... I like martial arts but there is another side me that doesn't give a rats behind about "arts" and the results is ALL that matters.
 

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And that is the problem with martial arts. Results don't matter.

If the above was described about medicine for example. People would be horrified.
To some it matters to some it doesn't. No ones right or wrong. Personally I don't care at all about competition. I'm training to stay healthy and have fun. I don't give a damm if I can beat someone or not. I couldn't care if every single person can beat me I'm training because I enjoy it simple as that. My reasons for training are just as valid as yours. That's the point there's no right or wrong answer. Martial arts is a hobby that's it lets be real it's a hobby that's all. The medicine comparison is frankly silly. A doctor doesn't study medicine for a hobby he does it because it's his job. Most martial artists aren't doing it as their job so they can do whatever they want. People need to get over their egos and stop telling everyone how they should spend their time training.
 

Headhunter

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While I tend to agree on this, DB, for some folks the outcome isn't the point. There are folks (quite a lot of them, I suspect but cannot establish) who really just want to do some cool stuff and have fun with it. For those folks, sparring or not sparring doesn't really change things.
Pretty much how it is for me. I'll spar sure but I don't care if I don't. I'll do whatever we do in class on that day. If I beat someone in class...so what? What do I get for it? Absolutely nothing so who cares
 

Kung Fu Wang

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We are going in circle again.

A: If we do ... we can make TMA more effective in fighting.
B: But TMA is not for fighting only. It can be for health, performance, inner peace, self-cultivation, fun, ...
A: ...

May be we should close all online MA discussion if people all believe in:

- If you care about fight, you should get yourself a gun.
- Fighting will get you in jail.
- ...

We should all start to discuss "Taiji double weightiness" instead. The world will be so friendly and peaceful. :)
 
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hoshin1600

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@drop bear
I think I may have just figured out where some of our disagreements come from.
It's the objectives we train for. I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that your frame work of reference is a bar fight. Where the consequences are a knock out, choke out, concussion or a broken arm. That is what you train for. So your objective is to win in that frame work.
Where for myself...and I hesitate to write this but..my objective is to kill, to take someone's life. That is what I train for. I'm at an age in my life where bar fights are not going to happen anymore. If I have to fight, it's some serious $#!^. My force continuum starts with two bullets center mass, then decreases from there two my knife. Yes I carry a knife from the time I wake till I undress for bed, then unarmed fighting. I can reduce the force from there if needed but the common training is for worst case. If I drop someone with a 9mm. I can hardly call that a win..it's maybe better than dead, but it ain't no win.
So when I say look for other options or a different kind of win, this is why. my starting point is too high. But I can see your point. If your starting point is having to make contact in sparring then what you say makes sense. To back off from there to a lower intensity lends itself to some issues.
 

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not a bad blog post but not great either. he bring up some good points but his explanations and examples are lacking. ill give him a pass on this because i know myself that when i try to find examples its not always so easy to communicate what im thinking. however his examples do lead the reader into exactly what he is rallying against,,, groupthink.

Illusions of invulnerability – The belief that the group cannot fail –
Most MMA schools are isolated from the “outside world”. When a group of likeminded people train together long enough, without leaving the safe confines of their dojo, it isn’t too long before a sense of superiority falls upon these students (and the coach). We can see this with the example of the MMA fighter who was knocked out cold in a convenience store by a group of young men, by all accounts, he seemed to suffer an illusion of grandeur.
....see what i did there...:)

Rationalising the tendency to “explain away” contracting information. This is also known in psychology as confirmation bias. The behaviour of group of people to only recognise those examples that support their view point and rationalize away the data that is contradicting their belief system.
Himself and his students explained away the disastrous defeat by claiming he wasn’t properly nourished before the match.

the problem with this example is that it is not just traditional martial arts. any fighter in any discipline is known to make excuses for thier loss.
Find me an MMA school where what you are taught is not put to the fire daily and you might have a point. Otherwise this is an apples to oranges comparison.

The same goes for your follow-up post; the entire premise of marriage is not to win fights, where the entire point of learning to fight is just that. The best solution vis a vis a system of fighting is to effectivly use it to win fights. If you can not you essentially have a car with no engine. Sure you can try to sell it as a comfy place to sit and forward that as it's primary purpose, but that's really just slight of hand.
 
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hoshin1600

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Find me an MMA school where what you are taught is not put to the fire daily and you might have a point. Otherwise this is an apples to oranges comparison.

The same goes for your follow-up post; the entire premise of marriage is not to win fights, where the entire point of learning to fight is just that. The best solution vis a vis a system of fighting is to effectivly use it to win fights. If you can not you essentially have a car with no engine. Sure you can try to sell it as a comfy place to sit and forward that as it's primary purpose, but that's really just slight of hand.
Apparently you missed the part where I was trying to express that I agree with having the ability to win a fight, but that's different from using that ability. My car has an engine and it runs just fine yall are trying to paint a picture and make an argument that isn't there. Your basically saying if you don't do MMA then you can't fight. You may skirt the direct quote but that's what your implying.
 

hoshin1600

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where the entire point of learning to fight is just that.
Your absolutely right...but some of us are not playing by your rules. I'm not training to "fight" , I'm training to "win" with minimal effort while keeping myself out of prison.
 

Martial D

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Apparently you missed the part where I was trying to express that I agree with having the ability to win a fight, but that's different from using that ability. My car has an engine and it runs just fine yall are trying to paint a picture and make an argument that isn't there. Your basically saying if you don't do MMA then you can't fight. You may skirt the direct quote but that's what your implying.
You are so far off you are in a different postal code, this has nothing to do with whether MMA is superior to anything, only that your comparison didn't really work.

The arguments leveled at a lack of pressure testing and the resultant groupthink just doesn't work when pressure testing is present. This is true not just in martial arts, but across the board.
 

hoshin1600

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Find me an MMA school where what you are taught is not put to the fire daily and you might have a point. Otherwise this is an apples to oranges comparison.
sorry to keep this up but im in a especially dark mood tonight ...so i apologize.

you want apples to apples...

so you and Drop Bear are in a bar you get in a physical fight with someone and how does that end? how do you see the win? did you knock him out? ok let go with that.....then what? THEN WHAT? how does that win taste? do you think your going to go home and enjoy your dinner with your wife and kids and that was the end of it? yeah sometimes that is the end of it,,except when its not the end of it.
well guess what..the dude had a few friends there and they got your name. 5 minutes of Google -fu and facebook and the dude knows where you live and do you think he is just gonna let things be? nope hes gonna return it back 10 fold. he shows up at your house and the door bell rings...ding dong, guess who mother F"er and he blows a hole though the back of the head of who ever answers, because he wants you to suffer he doesnt care who it is.
how does that win taste now?

the problem with the MMA Groupthink is you think the other guy is going to engage with you like in the cage...well on the street some people, the dangerous people are not going to square off and engage with you.. they will drop their head say sorry, maybe walk away. but later will come up behind you and stick you in the gut or in the back when your not paying attention. they are not playing by your rules.
 

hoshin1600

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The arguments leveled at a lack of pressure testing and the resultant groupthink just doesn't work when pressure testing is present. This is true not just in martial arts, but across the board.
for the record i am a big proponent of pressure testing. somehow we got our lines crossed on that one because pressure testing wasnt something i was talking about at all.
and comparison? i wasnt comparing anything i was using an analogy. i used it to point out that wining is not always the best possible out come. if that was confusing or it didnt work for you ...well there is always next time.
 

Martial D

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sorry to keep this up but im in a especially dark mood tonight ...so i apologize.

you want apples to apples...

so you and Drop Bear are in a bar you get in a physical fight with someone and how does that end? how do you see the win? did you knock him out? ok let go with that.....then what? THEN WHAT? how does that win taste? do you think your going to go home and enjoy your dinner with your wife and kids and that was the end of it? yeah sometimes that is the end of it,,except when its not the end of it.
well guess what..the dude had a few friends there and they got your name. 5 minutes of Google -fu and facebook and the dude knows where you live and do you think he is just gonna let things be? nope hes gonna return it back 10 fold. he shows up at your house and the door bell rings...ding dong, guess who mother F"er and he blows a hole though the back of the head of who ever answers, because he wants you to suffer he doesnt care who it is.
how does that win taste now?

the problem with the MMA Groupthink is you think the other guy is going to engage with you like in the cage...well on the street some people, the dangerous people are not going to square off and engage with you.. they will drop their head say sorry, maybe walk away. but later will come up behind you and stick you in the gut or in the back when your not paying attention. they are not playing by your rules.
I think the Crux here is that I don't go to a martial art for making life decisions or keeping my wits about me. Those are completely different things. I go to a martial art to learn and hone fighting skills.

I don't think anyone is advocating for a two fists solve all approach to anything, or that MMA is better than anything, or anything resembling your stabby guy scenario.
 

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