The need to feed?

[Hand Sword]

Hello all!

Last evening I came across an old friend that I remembered as one hell of a martial artist back in the day. When I asked if he was still a practitioner he said no, which surprised me. He was still in incredible shape, as he's into weights, and running. He said that he remembers everything but no longer can practice do to the negative feelings that training in the arts created. My first thought was confusion as I immediately thought back into the "company line" of the martial arts as building positives, like character, humility, etc... He shook it all off and said those are nice theories but in reality "when you feed the need, you create the need to feed!" He claimed that training in the arts actually sent him into darker places internally and hating to go there, he had to give it all up, though it was his passion. He did say that he is happier now, but, even in "retirement" from the arts, he gets that need to feed (More violence is what he was referring too or negative qualities) every once in a while.

So, I am curious as to whether or not anyone else has experienced this as apart of their training? Do you find it taking you to darker places? Do you have to feed the need (Violence and negative), if even a tiny bit? (Yin and Yang- creating one, creates the other at the same time). Honesty would be great!
Thanks! :asian:

 

[Bruno@MT]

Not really. But I am not a violent or confrontational man to begin with. Martial arts does not feed anything inside me that gets more powerful and needs to be restrained. To me, MA is a liberating experience. Whenever I am on the mat, I don't think about everyday problems or people. My mind automatically discards all filler. I am part of a dojo which is fairly strict on etiquette. For me, such an environment is bliss because it allows me to function with distracting thoughts.

After I get off the mat, I usually feel relaxed and lighter, even when the training itself can be physically demanding. I can imagine that for other people, MA training has a different effect. In that case, I have much respect for your friend who has recognized this in himself, and decided not to go down that road.

Also, there is a saying in my art: 'ni sente nashi' which means something like 'from this side will the first attack not come'. We learn to wait for an attack and then react to that. We don't learn to go to the offense. Whenever I encounter (verbal) conflict situations, I don't feel the need to get aggressive. I feel that in my art I can grown strong because the underlying core principles are aligned with the kind of person I am. If I would go into Muay Thai or Kyukishinkai, I'd probably suck at that because the underlying principles are completely foreign to me.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[Tez3]

I have seen several people who are violently inclined or have short fuses come into MMA and turn their lives around. The strict discipline of training more than the actual fighting is what has tended to calm these people, the acceptance by others is also important. I've seen several old style martial arts places disrepect others not of their ilk or thoughts, MMA takes you as you are, no platitudes or excuses. It's about fighting yourself more than anything else and the best part of you winning.
The concept of 'no first strike' is a debatable one, some stances for example in Wado Ryu suggest that if threatened one can certainly strike first which to my mind and the British law is an acceptable concept. It doesn't mean starting the fight it means finishing it before it starts. If in danger of your life you don't wait for the other to strike first. I don't think Muay Thai is any more aggressive than other martial arts, it's a competition sport. In the street MT fighters don't go around starting fights!

 

[Bruno@MT]

I didn't mean to imply that MT fighters are street fighters or more inclined to start a fight; just that the underlying concepts are very different from what I practice. What I do is a very good fit for me because it is aligned with who I am.

If people are practicing an art that feel unnatural, it could affect them mentally and thus have a bad influence on them.

 

[Tez3]

I think we have to be careful and not pretend martial arts aren't about violence. We use words to hide this, we 'practice' an 'art', we have nice sayings that make us feel that we are doing something spiritual instead of learning to snap a guys neck or punch his lights out. We need to be honest with ourselves about what we do, it's violent and it's nasty, to lie and say it's spiritual is conning ourselves and it will hurt us in the long run.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I agree with you Irene, but likewise we should not ignore the fact that different arts have different ways in which to approach the concept of violence. In some arts, this approach to violence is radically different from other arts, and comes with a different mindset.

This is not to say that one is better, than the other. They are just different. They can both be equally violent, but one can be very different from the other. In my case, waiting for the attacker to open himself up in the attack feels much more natural than attacking the other person and trying to break through his defenses. I've tried systems on both ends of the spectrum, but only one felt right. The other, (I tried kickboxing during the summer off-season in college) while effective and a superb workout, just felt wrong.

 

[Tez3]

I think the problem may be in some of the more commercial outfits where the selling point is peace and harmony but they are teaching martial arts techniques so that a student can feel they are being torn between what the instructors are saying and doing. It's one reason I'm not into all the sayings being plastered over a dojo about respect,not fighting, being nice to everyone etc. They tend to insinuate that only they are nice to everyone and respect everyone so that if anyone has negative feelings about anything as happens, they are made to feel as they are to blame. martial arts should be seen for what it is, fighting systems not religions or belief systems.

I believe in striking first, I'm small and female, if threatened I can't afford to wait usually for an opening, I have to make it while they are off guard but I can wait if I have to, what I'm taught covers fighting and self defence not any philosophy or religous beliefs.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I believe in striking first, I'm small and female, if threatened I can't afford to wait usually for an opening, I have to make it while they are off guard but I can wait if I have to, what I'm taught covers fighting and self defence not any philosophy or religous beliefs.

Tanemura sensei is about 1 meter 50 cm and he doesn't have much in the way of body fat (and thus weight), as far as I can tell from whatever footage I've seen of him. He's also 60 years old. Yet despite that he can still make firewood of people twice his size and half his age. Hatsumi sensei is 80 years old and I was told that the same applies to him.

I accept that what you do works for you, but people with similar physical conditions to your own can also be successful at self defense using other strategies. Your size does not force you to fight one way or the other, at least not by definition. Your training and your natural preference to choose one way over the other do.

 

[Tez3]

Tanemura sensei is about 1 meter 50 cm and he doesn't have much in the way of body fat (and thus weight), as far as I can tell from whatever footage I've seen of him. He's also 60 years old. Yet despite that he can still make firewood of people twice his size and half his age. Hatsumi sensei is 80 years old and I was told that the same applies to him.

I accept that what you do works for you, but people with similar physical conditions to your own can also be successful at self defense using other strategies. Your size does not force you to fight one way or the other, at least not by definition. Your training and your natural preference to choose one way over the other do.

My training doesn't lead me to chose a preference, it gives me many options, what I chose to do is my own preference based on my calculating my rates of survival using various means. My professional work training teaches me to go in and stop situations by whatever means I have to with the peaceful option being the first. I prefer to strike first because I'm mean, and I like living a lot.

 

[girlbug2]

Practicing MA brings me to a better place, not darker. That is the first time I've heard anybody say that.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I think it's really a matter of prior disposition. If you have an aggressive nature, and don't master control of it, and/or you train in an art that encourages aggression, you could have problems. It's not that one is a bad person, just that you end up wrongly focused for your nature. I'd suspect that a different art which complimented your archtype better would help one gain mastery of that aggression and more efficiently focus it in a positive way.

 

[Tez3]

I think it's really a matter of prior disposition. If you have an aggressive nature, and don't master control of it, and/or you train in an art that encourages aggression, you could have problems. It's not that one is a bad person, just that you end up wrongly focused for your nature. I'd suspect that a different art which complimented your archtype better would help one gain mastery of that aggression and more efficiently focus it in a positive way.

or different instructors.

 

[wushuguy]

I think it depends on the individual. I think we all generally agree that most people wouldn't feel that way but some people have an inclination to the "dark side". Most people that I've met take martial arts and can be surprised that it can be violent, because they have the fancy idea that it's a game or kids stuff (thanks to Karate Kid, and the like), so when most people see the violent/realistic side matched with the general tenets of good morality, people generally have a change of attitude and some more respect for their art, they take it more seriously, and well, grow up. there are a few people, who naturally are more vicious in their heart, so when they find the violent side of the arts, they take hold of it and relish it, it can even be more like an addiction to the violence and theoretical bloodshed and destruction. Some people can get over it when they mature some more, others are sucked deeper into it. So, in my opinion, it's good that the guy stopped doing MA, cuz he's not ready for it, not cut out for it. It's safer and better for him not to "feed the need".

 

[Bruno@MT]

I think it's really a matter of prior disposition. If you have an aggressive nature, and don't master control of it, and/or you train in an art that encourages aggression, you could have problems. It's not that one is a bad person, just that you end up wrongly focused for your nature. I'd suspect that a different art which complimented your archtype better would help one gain mastery of that aggression and more efficiently focus it in a positive way.

Thanks Bob. This was what I was trying to get at.

 

[xJOHNx]

I can relate. It's one of the reasons why I quit thaibox.
I didn't get darker, just the people around me. Who were more into being weekend streetfighters than into being balanced.

 

[Miles]

I believe everyone has both dark and light sides to their personalities. The activities they choose to engage in can illustrate aspects of those personalities. However, I've never looked at my MA training as being dark, but rather, part of the light. I don't train to hurt others but to strengthen myself. I see the fight as not being against another person, but against my own desire to sit down, do nothing. My opponent is always myself.

Now having said this, I love hitting other folks before they hit me. But it is not done with an intention of injury but within a specific rule set. If I was forced into a self-defense situation, I don't see my reaction (hopefully) as an attempt to injure the attacker but rather to thwart him.

 

[Cirdan]

I think that if you train in an art and are mindful about what you are doing it can at some point be quite scary.

Studying what is indeed a sophisticated system of destroying the human body and snuffing out life opens you up to the horrors of how if would feel to actually use it. Or having it used on you? Sure there are other aspects to arts, but even systems like Wado (the way of peace) has such depth of violence that most of the general public would label every practicioner a psycopath if they knew. Also since you can never pressure test these things to the point of doing maximum damage, it is natural to have some fear that it won`t actually work or that you won`t be able to use what you have learned in a real situation. Together this can have many effects on you, like the "need to feed". IMO the way to deal with it is simple, keep training, talk to those you train with and your instructor, and keep having an open mind. The yin/yang of this is that realizing and facing the gruesomely violent side of the art, you can also be in full control of it and more gentle.

Ok, I am done rambling.. for now.

 

[ATC]

Hello all!

Last evening I came across an old friend that I remembered as one hell of a martial artist back in the day. When I asked if he was still a practitioner he said no, which surprised me. He was still in incredible shape, as he's into weights, and running. He said that he remembers everything but no longer can practice do to the negative feelings that training in the arts created. My first thought was confusion as I immediately thought back into the "company line" of the martial arts as building positives, like character, humility, etc... He shook it all off and said those are nice theories but in reality "when you feed the need, you create the need to feed!" He claimed that training in the arts actually sent him into darker places internally and hating to go there, he had to give it all up, though it was his passion. He did say that he is happier now, but, even in "retirement" from the arts, he gets that need to feed (More violence is what he was referring too or negative qualities) every once in a while.

So, I am curious as to whether or not anyone else has experienced this as apart of their training? Do you find it taking you to darker places? Do you have to feed the need (Violence and negative), if even a tiny bit? (Yin and Yang- creating one, creates the other at the same time). Honesty would be great!
Thanks! :asian:

Just to keep what I say simple. Sounds like he had bad teachings. He also has a warpped way of thinking. What need? Feed what? This tells me that he has a need = violence and he has to feed it. Does not matter if this person does MA or baseball, he will have a need to feed as he says.

 

[Hand Sword]

Well, as the post said, since he got away from the arts, he has found more peace and happiness. As for teachings, well if it's the same for a whole group and 99 oh the 100 are "good," why is that 1 a reason a teacher is bad? Knowing this person for a long time now, NO! He is not a dark personality. Listening to some "old timers" (even some founders!) they, in this day would come across as barbaric or neanderthals. Different time, culture, and era now.

Can it be that training causes the need to know if it will work and possibly make you now a "little less likely" to walk away and maybe, even if for an extra few seconds, be bolder than you are normally? Doesn't this count as darker, as you are more aggressive? (even though you call it confident) Speaking honestly, isn't there now a piece in you that just "wants" or "dares" some action to take place? If no, then why all the constant competitions? Why a fan of watching fights? Etc... Aren't you feeding a dark desire?

 

[DarkShadowfax]

It doesn't really take me to darker places. I'm not a violent person to begin with, but when struck, people won't like me. I don't feel the need to strike first, but for my size and weight, it would maybe work out better if I did. It just doesn't fit my personality. I can smack someone senseless if I want to, but I've talked myself out of a lot of difficult situations without having to threaten someone, and I'd like to keep it that way.

After training, I feel relaxed and strangely energized, but when skipping training, I get restless (maybe because I missed out on smacking someone, missed the relaxed feeling or just because I didn't get to spill my pent up energy). Before I started training in KM, I didn't feel this way. For me, training in KM did not directly increase the need to do something, although skipping training does increase the need to move around and get back to training as soon as I can.
It actually depends on the person. Some people train in MA because they'll get to smack someone with reason. Sometimes, it stops at that, sometimes they'll find the cure to it, and sometimes, the need to smack someone grows stronger and they'll go around smacking people around in bars with their new abilities.

Edit: As to your new question, I don't think its necessarily dark, it's just (over)confidence. They know that they can fight back during attacks and deal a good amount of hurt. With some people however, it doesn't stop at that, they'll match themselves to random people on earth and theorize whether they can take him/her on, and ultimately, they'll fight people because they're confident in their new abilities, and because they like the adrenaline rush.