The Muslim Jesus...

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Spirituality in the Arts' started by Makalakumu, Mar 13, 2008.

  1. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5664653194971017112&hl=en

    This video presents the story of Jesus as told by the Koran. I imagine that many will find it surprising that Jesus is an important part of Islam.

    Of course, they have a different story...
     
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  2. cstanley

    cstanley Blue Belt

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    It is completely absurd for any American or Christian to even consider Muslim views on Jesus, the Judaeo-Christian tradition, or anything else. Until we get over this PC crap about "openness" to Muslims we will forever be co-opted in our efforts to deal with what is and always has been a Judaeo-Christian hating nonsense religion based upon the psychotic fantasies of one man. I think the entire country has lost its mind.
     
  3. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    I am not surprised.

    Jesus is a recognized Profit just like Abraham and Moses.

    There are some differences they state about Jesus, and the claim that as Muhammad is the last profit he is the greatest. It is their religion They can believe what they want.

    The Jewish Faith does not Believe Jesus was the son of God, they believe he, the son of God or Saviour, will come in the future. (* From my limited exposure to this faith *). It is their faith they can believe what they want.
     
  4. Empty Hands

    Empty Hands Senior Master

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    Why? Learning not your thing?

    Well, that certainly isn't true. For instance, the Muslim world was far more welcoming and tolerant of Jews for most of their history than the Christian world, Europe in particular, was. Jews and Christians could even rise to high governmental rank, like Joseph Nasi, Duke of Naxos, Count of Andros, and high-ranking diplomat under Suleiman I in the Ottoman Empire.
     
  5. donald

    donald Black Belt

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    What I find interesting is that Islam mentions The Lord Jesus as a prophet, and a liar!

    1stJohn1:9
     
  6. Kacey

    Kacey Sr. Grandmaster

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    Judaism believes that Jesus was a holy man and a prophet, but not the Messiah, as the conditions for the coming of the Messiah have not yet been met; therefore, according to Judaic belief, the Messiah cannot have come yet, and thus cannot have been Jesus.

    As far as Islam, however, the Koran includes many of the events in the Old and New Testaments, although the perspective is different in many cases. In general, you have Judaism, which considers only the Old Testament to be holy writ; then you have Christianity, which considers the Old and New Testaments to be holy writ. Christianity grew out of Judaism; then they each evolved in different directions based on their understanding and application of holy writ.

    Christianity expanded to Europe, and Judaism (although much smaller in number of pracitioners) moved along with it. Both grew and evolved further in Europe and, later, in the western parts of Asia, especially in what was Russia. Islam continued to grow and evolve in the Middle East.

    Islam takes the events of the Old and New Testaments, and adds to them the words of Muhammed, their holiest prophet, best summed up the phrase "there is no god but Allah, and Muhammed is his prophet". All 3 religions have their roots in the same region and same historical events - else they would not all share Jerusalem as a holy city; although Mecca is the holiest city for those who practice Islam, Jerusalem is still recognized as significant. Since Islam includes the events of the Old and New Testaments, it must perforce deal with Jesus as well - but to my understanding, no prophet stands before Muhammed in importance; please correct me if I am wrong.
     
  7. cstanley

    cstanley Blue Belt

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    Yeah, I know...so we acknowledge that and the fact that they did preserve Aristotle for us. It is indeed true that Islam is founded upon the psychotic fantasies of one man. What you and too many others do not seem to understand is that the big bright pink elephant in the dining room that every one is walking around is the fact that our war is against Islam...period, not some politely mythic "Islamic" terrorism. Islamic terrorism is a huge redundancy. We need to finish the job that Richard the First, Charlemagne, Pepin, and Catherine de Medicis did not finish. The Spanish did a pretty good job, albeit too late to avoid too much Muslim influence on their culture. I don't think I am the one with the learning problem.
     
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  8. Empty Hands

    Empty Hands Senior Master

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    Enjoying yourself Internet Tough Guy? When you calm down a little, you might want to realize that there are millions of completely peaceful Muslims who want nothing more than to live peacefully and well and raise their children. They don't need or want you dead. I would take them any day over someone like yourself who would declare war on peaceful people.

    Well, one thing's for sure, you are the one with the proudly ignorant aggression problem.

    Enjoy your attempted war of genocide champ. Don't be surprised when the only people standing by your side have shaved heads and swastika tattoos.

    Hey, while we're at it, do you realize or care that some well known and respected members of this board are Muslims?
     
  9. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Have you even read the Koran? And if that is a psychotic fantasy them the Bible is loaded with them.

    And if this is what you think of Islam you must be pretty put off by Buddhism (one guy Gautama Siddhattha) and Taoism (one guy Lao Tzu... kinda) too I guess
     
  10. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    Yes, they were so tolerant that when the muslims prohibited visitors into Jerusalem, and then started to systematically try to advance their empire and destroy those that stood in the way, they were being SOOO tolerant. It was those events that prompted the plea for help that became known as "The Crusades".

    Not to mention from "their prophet" the Muslims are COMMANDED to behead the infidels. Yes, so tolerant!

    There is a HUGE difference in someone using religion to JUSTIFY their actions and being COMMANDED to do those actions.
     
  11. Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

    Kembudo-Kai Kempoka Senior Master

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    I'd be tempted to assume they don't grow them all that bright in Georgia, but then that would be the same type of idiocy expressed in your statements. Too bad the Union Army didn't finish what they started, and destroy the rest of your ancestors. Or, better still, too bad Hitler didn't finish what he started, then we would all be speaking German. Or Japanese.

    Rarely on these boards have I ever dismissed someone as an idiot. I may disagree with people vehemently, and get my undies all torqued in a bunch, but not dismiss them as an idiot. Congratulations; you are the first.

    Bigotry & stupidity don't mix well, and when they do, trying to argue with them is a bit like shouting at a wall.
    :BSmeter::banghead:

    Dave
     
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  12. Empty Hands

    Empty Hands Senior Master

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    It's a relative thing, as I made clear in my comments. The Muslim countries in past centuries, particularly the Ottoman empire, were more tolerant of Jews and other foreigners than most Christian countries, particularly Europe. This is not to say that the Muslim countries were a perfect utopia of tolerance and brotherhood.
     
  13. tellner

    tellner Senior Master

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    That's close, but still a bit wide of the mark. I don't want to hijack the discussion, but hope it's okay to clear up a few inaccuracies...

    Judaism doesn't have the same concept of "salvation" and "damnation" as Christianity or Islam. There have been various thoughts on the subject over the centuries. What it comes down to is that the fundamental Divine Spark which is part of each of us is perfect and imperishable. But it is (metaphorically) covered with dross. Each of us is entitled to a portion on the World to Come, a return to the Divine. But if one does not turn away from evil and towards good the process of returning to that state is longer and more painful.

    The good or evil that we do here in the world has cosmic significance precisely because we are spiritually limited, half blind, free-willed and deal with gross matter. The Kabbalists say that the angels envy us because of our capacity to do such things, to make changes in solid dumb matter and affect ourselves and others in permanent ways. With the world in the sad state it's in the smallest reaching towards G-d can be the pivot on which great things turn.

    According to the Sages and the Law Moshiach has not yet arrived. Look in Torah and Talmud for specifics. "But though he tarry I still long for his coming". It's said that in every generation there is or are souls with the potential to carry out that function. When he (or she) does people's eyes will be opened. We will all truly understand and live an accordance with the Divine Will. But it's not "salvation" in the Christian sense, and it isn't limited to Jews.

    And Moshiach is not the Son of G-d. He or she will be a human being. There's no need for a human sacrifice. The divide between spirit and matter is a false one, so there's no need for a demigod to bridge the gap. The first Moshiach will struggle, suffer and ultimately fail. The second will triumph and bring about the Messianic age.

    I guess a doctrine like that cuts down on the people who want to pop up and say "I'm the One!"

    "Really? Let's make sure you've got that suffering and failing part taken care of." ;)

    The real difference is one of perspective. Christianity is much more focused on the next life, the World of Truth as we call it. Jews don't hold with the sharp division between spirit/heaven/good and matter/earth/bad. This is the world we are in. Living a good life in it is what's important. The next one is not where we are, so get back to work and concentrate on what you need to do in the here-and-now :)
     
  14. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    You really need to check your history on the Crusades if you are going to use that as an example.

    The Christian crusaders killed everyone they found in Jerusalem be they Muslim, Jew or Christian.

    And it was more the Pope wanting to free the Hollyland from the Muslims then a cry for help from Jews in Jerusalem and if that was the case killing them really didn’t help them all that much. The pope was not all to fond of Jews either

    EDIT
    And why am I really starting to think this thread is destine to be locked
     
  15. Grenadier

    Grenadier Administrator Staff Member

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  16. tellner

    tellner Senior Master

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    Thank you for sharing, cstanley.

    Let's clear up a few old lies and distortions here...

    First, there is no "Judaeo-Christian tradition" [sic]. Judaism and Christianity have very different outlooks. The term was invented by Christians to co-opt Judaism and force it to surrender its age and legitimacy to be some sort of precursor to your religion. No Jew would ever use the term. Nor would an educated Christian.

    Islam is Islam. There's infinitely more evidence for the existence of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) than there is for the existence of Jesus. The Christian Holy Book has little or no historical coherence, something your face is currently being rubbed in in another discussion. We know who Mohammed was. We know when and where he lived. And even if I believe that Umar al Kitabu did a lot of editing we have plenty of good reason to believe that the Quran is pretty much exactly what was written.

    As for delusions and psychoses, I don't think you would like the same harsh light shone on your beliefs. Consider Paul. Consider John the Divine. Consider any number of other such things. A dispassionate observer would have to suggest that you take Yeshua ben Maryam's advice about beams and dust specks.

    If you want to look at the histories of Christianity and Islam in the world you will find that the fruits they have borne aren't always better on the Christian side. I'm being mild here to try for fairness.

    An attitude like yours is precisely why people like Madison, Jefferson, Washington, Franklin and all the rest specifically kept all positive mention of religion out of the Constitution. They knew about the corrosive effects of religious hatred and bigotry and were vocal in expressing their horror at them. They were children of the Enlightenment, not the Reformation or Counter-Reformation and certainly not mouth-breathing Know Nothings. In fact, the peace treaty Jefferson signed with the Barbary Coast nations and the Senate approved specifically stated that the United States was "in no way a Christian nation" and had no hostility whatsoever to Islam.

    Islam, like Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism and every other religion has its problems. Part of it is that they are all limited things run by limited human beings. The Ultimate Reality is almost certainly beyond any of them.
     
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  17. tellner

    tellner Senior Master

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    Not to mention one guy Yeshua ben Maryam :shrug:
     
  18. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    I had some premonition that I would have to apologize to Bob after starting this thread, however, I feel that this video is really worth the discussion. I learned more about Islam in 45 minutes then I did in 20 years in public schools.

    Watch the movie and comment.
     
  19. tellner

    tellner Senior Master

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    It shouldn't surprise anyone that Isa(pbuh) is important in Islam. He is considered to be one of the Prophets and even more one who brought a Book to humanity. Mohammed(pbuh) spent a lot of his time with Christians and was particularly influenced by the Nestorians whom Islam later preserved from murder at the hands of the Pauline Christians. The Quran says to the Jews that Isa was "the one whom We sent to you".
     
  20. CoryKS

    CoryKS Senior Master

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    Not to worry. If we don't get that pesky Judaism vs. Christianity vs. Islam question solved once and for all here at MartialTalk, I'm sure the folks over at HorrorMovieForums or BDSMChat or BikersWorld will take care of it. ;)
     
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