"the mistaken counter"

[mook jong man]

One of the primary defenses we use against a straight punch in our lineage is a technique we call "Counter-Pierce".
It is a Tan Sau (pinky side) used against the outside of the opponents punching wrist , it has the ability to both deflect the punch and strike through to the opponent in one efficient movement.

But being humans sometimes we will make an error , we think he is going to punch with one hand but actually he punches with the other hand.
Our Tan Sau hits empty space where we thought his hand would be , we could continue to strike through , but this could be risky if he has a reach advantage and remember he is punching in a straight line too and his other hand is already on its way.

All is not lost however , with a technique that really demonstrates how any Wing Chun technique can be interrupted and then instantly convert into something else with minimal movement.

We use what we call "The Mistaken Counter" , using our previously mentioned Tan Sau , breaking the rules a bit we take the Tan Sau across the centreline to intercept the other incoming strike.
We deflect the strike over a little bit , just enough to redirect away from our face , and feed it into our waiting Wu Sau hand , where we then Lop Sau his striking arm and Fak Sau the throat.

Do any other lineages use this type of technique to recover from such an error , or do you use something else?

 

[yak sao]

Here's something we do in the same vein:

Vs. a hook punch: If opponent is throwing a right hook we use an outfalling step with our right foot as the right hand punches the face and left arm performs fook sau to their punching arm (imagine a tan sau, but instead of palm up, it is palm down) We end up in a sideling stance facing our opponent's center.

If we get faked out and he actually throws a left hook, rather than trying to regroup and fall out to the other side after we've committed to the right side, we simply stay behind our hands and allow their left hook to deform our right punch into bong sau...we then punch under our bong sau to the opponents face with our left hand.

 

[yak sao]

here is a video of my old sisok performing the defense vs a right roundhouse punch.
I will try to find the bong sau variation....BTW ignore the red(orange?) pants, he lives in Los Angeles and I'm sure his pants are considered very conservative there

http://youtu.be/tfCcpyqO4Io

 

[yak sao]

closest I could find to the bong variation...in this clip he is going against chain punching.

Vs a hook, the bong would possibly deform a little higher and the left punch would then go under the bong sau

http://youtu.be/rP6N3zuyLaA

 

[Nabakatsu]

I had no idea that was done in previous Leung Ting lineages, I thought it was https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...q=kenneth+kernspecht&spell=1&biw=1280&bih=918 kernspecht or Emin's invention. The hand that normally would outside fook sau goes to punch, get's deformed, to a higher-ish bong sau, if you can get it that high, the rear hand punches underneath, to guide the arm away, and the bong sau is striking. I love that variation, no such thing as a wrong step. Gotta drill the crap out of the apps to make this viable. But I love it! Thanks for sharing Yak!

 

[yak sao]

I had no idea that was done in previous Leung Ting lineages, I thought it was kernspecht or Emin's invention. The hand that normally would outside fook sau goes to punch, get's deformed, to a higher-ish bong sau, if you can get it that high, the rear hand punches underneath, to guide the arm away, and the bong sau is striking. I love that variation, no such thing as a wrong step. Gotta drill the crap out of the apps to make this viable. But I love it! Thanks for sharing Yak!

No prob....but Emin was my first sifu....that's where I learned it

 

[Nabakatsu]

Huh, I had it in my head Leung Ting for whatever reason, my bad!

 

[hunt1]

MJM, I may be a bit confused here.You seem to be describing dealing with a jab cross combo. You anticipate the jab but instead a cross comes. is this correct? You have 2 hands. What is the other hand doing? If you are talking about intercepting a jab with the outside hand tan sau ( This would give you the pinky side of tan against the outside of punching wrist you describe then why isn't your other hand in position to cover/pick off/intercept the other punch you are describing. Tan hand goes forward as strike and other hand protects from the opposite hand punch.

It seems that what you are describing, having the tan cross over to pick off the cross opens you up for the follow up jab that is surely coming. Also by crossing you are limiting the use of the other hand aren't you? Seems like you are using 2 hands to protect against 1.

 

[hunt1]

Yak sao, sorry but Bad stuff in that video. The guy in the orange is stepping right into the cross that will be coming hence getting himself knocked out. Hole thing is based on a drunk throwing a huge looping round punch and totally committed to it. Any trained fighter will not do this and will be following up the lead punch with a backhand punch. Untrained street fighters will do the same, throwing an attack from the backhand right behind the front hand attack. Stepping right into the backhand attack while hoping that you can actually lop and disrupt before you are hit with the back hand is a bad idea.

 

[yak sao]

yes if you stay at range and throw one punch, you're right...you'll get your clock cleaned. But if you are rocking him back on his heels as you move into his space, there's not going to be much of a second punch to deal with.

 

[wtxs]

MJM - assuming we are talking an face-to-face drill ... we cycles the "waiting Wu" into your "counter-pierce" or any other shapes, and the initial "counter-pierce" to replace the now converted Wu. The new "waiting Wu" will save your butt ... cause the punch you had anticipated IS coming this time.

Taking the Tan across your center line leaves the upper gate wide open ...just MHO.

 

[yak sao]

Hunt....how do you deal with hook punches? Do you have a video example that I could see?
Thanks

 

[mook jong man]

MJM, I may be a bit confused here.You seem to be describing dealing with a jab cross combo. You anticipate the jab but instead a cross comes. is this correct? You have 2 hands. What is the other hand doing? If you are talking about intercepting a jab with the outside hand tan sau ( This would give you the pinky side of tan against the outside of punching wrist you describe then why isn't your other hand in position to cover/pick off/intercept the other punch you are describing. Tan hand goes forward as strike and other hand protects from the opposite hand punch.

It seems that what you are describing, having the tan cross over to pick off the cross opens you up for the follow up jab that is surely coming. Also by crossing you are limiting the use of the other hand aren't you? Seems like you are using 2 hands to protect against 1.

No you are not confused.
The lead hand is already out there because you were anticipating a punch , so since it is already forward and out there it may as well do something and try and stop this other incoming punch in its infancy before it can build up power , rather than wait for it to get all the way to my back hand .
The second hand will also come up to help deflect the incoming punch.

It does not leave you open because even with the initial counterpierce movement we have started to step in , by the time we have deflected the punch slightly across (only a very minimal movement across) we are almost upon them and ready to strike with the Fak Sau.
Even if he did try too punch with the other hand , the Fak Sau could be raised a little higher to close that avenue off and jam his attempted punch.

The reasoning behind it is , with very fast straight punches you want to try and stop them with your front hand if at all possible , that way if something goes wrong the sensitivity of your front arm will tell you that the incoming punch has got through the perimeter of your front arm and your back hand better be ready to do something .

If I wait for it to get to the back hand then I have less time to react , and being the last line of defence if it goes wrong I am hit .

 

[mook jong man]

MJM - assuming we are talking an face-to-face drill ... we cycles the "waiting Wu" into your "counter-pierce" or any other shapes, and the initial "counter-pierce" to replace the now converted Wu. The new "waiting Wu" will save your butt ... cause the punch you had anticipated IS coming this time.

Taking the Tan across your center line leaves the upper gate wide open ...just MHO.

As I said to Hunt it is only a very slight movement across , just enough to deflect then convert straight into the Fak Sau.
A slight raising of your Fak Sau elbow will take care of any attempted punch from the other side.
I don't want to depend on a Wu Sau alone to stand up to the force of a rear right cross , it is going to need a little bit of help, and that is where redirecting the punch slightly over with your Tan Sau will help.

As I said the Tan Sau hand is already forward and in his space , so why not take the opportunity to take care of this punch in its early phase , rather than waiting for it to build up speed and power and hit the back hand.
In practice it is a very fast fluid movement and doesn't really give any opportunity for the opponent to punch with the other hand before he is hit , because you are moving in right from the start of the initial attack.

To my mind it is a recovery technique from the Biu Jee and those movements tend to cross the centreline.
Think of it this way , imagine if one of your arms were injured and you only had the one to use , how would you stop an opponent with fast straight punches?
What techniques would you use , probably something very similar to what I described I imagine.

 

[wtxs]

As I said the Tan Sau hand is already forward and in his space , so why not take the opportunity to take care of this punch in its early phase , rather than waiting for it to build up speed and power and hit the back hand.
In practice it is a very fast fluid movement and doesn't really give any opportunity for the opponent to punch with the other hand before he is hit , because you are moving in right from the start of the initial attack.

What you had outlined is one of may options. How ever, if we were to apply the economy of motion concept ... you intercept/forward Tan should turn into an attack, since you had or is moving forward into his space, while your waiting Wu launch followup attack(s).

 

[Vajramusti]

One of the primary defenses we use against a straight punch in our lineage is a technique we call "Counter-Pierce".
It is a Tan Sau (pinky side) used against the outside of the opponents punching wrist , it has the ability to both deflect the punch and strike through to the opponent in one efficient movement.

But being humans sometimes we will make an error , we think he is going to punch with one hand but actually he punches with the other hand.
Our Tan Sau hits empty space where we thought his hand would be , we could continue to strike through , but this could be risky if he has a reach advantage and remember he is punching in a straight line too and his other hand is already on its way.

All is not lost however , with a technique that really demonstrates how any Wing Chun technique can be interrupted and then instantly convert into something else with minimal movement.

We use what we call "The Mistaken Counter" , using our previously mentioned Tan Sau , breaking the rules a bit we take the Tan Sau across the centreline to intercept the other incoming strike.
We deflect the strike over a little bit , just enough to redirect away from our face , and feed it into our waiting Wu Sau hand , where we then Lop Sau his striking arm and Fak Sau the throat.

Do any other lineages use this type of technique to recover from such an error , or do you use something else?

--------------------------------------------------------------
Excuse me if I don't fully understand the problem. I don't think too much. If I sense a move I attack- let the hands think for themselves. I have two hands both work together- if an attack angle is suddenly changed by the opponent- a small but appropriate chum kiu move(turn)takes care of it.

joy chaudhuri

 

[mook jong man]

What you had outlined is one of may options. How ever, if we were to apply the economy of motion concept ... you intercept/forward Tan should turn into an attack, since you had or is moving forward into his space, while your waiting Wu launch followup attack(s).

That is true mate , but the problem is that he may have a longer reach than you and he has initiated the attack so you are already "playing catch up
So his punch may get to you first as you are in the process of moving into range to deliver yours thereby rendering your blow ineffective.

Also you are just relying on your Wu Sau to be able to handle the force of a fully fledged cross from their rear hand , the Wu Sau is not in the "optimum angle" like your front hand and is structurally not going to be as resistant to the incoming force and might be in danger of collapse.

Wu Sau can stand up to pressure , but in most cases it needs to be reinforced or augmented by some action with the front arm as well.

 

[wtxs]

That is true mate , but the problem is that he may have a longer reach than you and he has initiated the attack so you are already "playing catch up
So his punch may get to you first as you are in the process of moving into range to deliver yours thereby rendering your blow ineffective.

Also you are just relying on your Wu Sau to be able to handle the force of a fully fledged cross from their rear hand , the Wu Sau is not in the "optimum angle" like your front hand and is structurally not going to be as resistant to the incoming force and might be in danger of collapse.

Wu Sau can stand up to pressure , but in most cases it needs to be reinforced or augmented by some action with the front arm as well.

My teacher is big on simplicity, since you are already moving forward ( hopefully off-line to his flank) in respond to the perceived punch, you are not there for his intended punch to connect, but you are correct about the danger of the secondary strike from the other side.

Personally, I convert the Tan into any of the attacking hand since I'm already into his space, my Wu can be transition into any thing which may required. His "rear" punch when it does happen, can be handle by cycling back my initial hand/arm from the counter attack.

 

[hunt1]

Yak Sao not ignoring you just really busy with work. Will be back on by Friday.

 

[mook jong man]

My teacher is big on simplicity, since you are already moving forward ( hopefully off-line to his flank) in respond to the perceived punch, you are not there for his intended punch to connect, but you are correct about the danger of the secondary strike from the other side.

Personally, I convert the Tan into any of the attacking hand since I'm already into his space, my Wu can be transition into any thing which may required. His "rear" punch when it does happen, can be handle by cycling back my initial hand/arm from the counter attack.

The kind of range I am talking about , there is no moving offline , there is not enough warning or time at your disposal.
You can either move directly straight in ,which is the best or stay in the same spot and wait for him to come to you.

But unless it is a very telegraphed charging punch , you won' have time to move to his flank , just to be clear I am talking about close range where he is only about half a step away.

In my experience ,the best the Wu Sau can do once you sense that the incoming strike has made it past your front hand is to either raise up and try to deflect upwards or more likely a Pak Sau is used to redirect laterally.

But generally it won't do anything like trying to recycle forward , because the incoming punch has already beaten it past your front hand and is already there in contact with your back hand , you simply don't have the time.

On this one we will have to agree to disagree brother.