The Meaning of Ninja

[arnisador]

Uh, no...but if they purchase a martial arts book or DVD with Ninja in the title, it might be different, don't you think?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Yes, but the book and dvd in question are not labelled "instructional" material.

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

Well at the dojo I train at, I learn BBT and ninjutsu - The Bujinkan is derived of nine ryu, several of which teach ninja things. If you're not learning ninjutsu and want to, find an instructor that will teach you such.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Please let us know what this "ninjutsu" you are learning is.

 

[Shinkengata]

It's very sad when you consider that our friend Hanzo is acting almost exactly like i was on these forums when i was 16 and 17. He should have stuck around and became a RSS(Roley Success Story) like me.:supcool:

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

Nevermind. I appoint Nim as my minister of disinformation. Together, he and I will make sure that every one knows that Ninjutsu never has existed and never will, . . . and I otherwise know nothing about it.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

"When feeling unsure about something, simply deny all previously accepted terms and definitions."

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Just curious... I for one haven't been taught very much ninjutsu, which, to the best of my knowledge, has nothing to do with physical combat techniques, but rather is a specialized science designed for use in feudal Japan with the gathering and usage of information/disinformation as its main purpose.

 

[Floating Egg]

Unless you associate Togakure with Ninjutsu...

 

[Genin Andrew]

He should have stuck around and became a RSS(Roley Success Story) like me.:supcool:

He may be back, Don has an effect on most people like that, he'll be back for more...one day.

"Together, he and I will make sure that every one knows that Ninjutsu never has existed and never will"

DuuuuuuuuuuuudE!!!!!!!! i-am-not-saying-a-thing!
Not really the ideal place to throw around those statements! (ah, said something, really gotta work on self discipline)

 

[mizu_teppo]

Just curious... I for one haven't been taught very much ninjutsu, which, to the best of my knowledge, has nothing to do with physical combat techniques, but rather is a specialized science designed for use in feudal Japan with the gathering and usage of information/disinformation as its main purpose.

Well there is Santo Tonko no Kata (12 formal escape patterns involving shuko, metsbushui, senban, and goton no jutsu), Shinobi Gaeshi Gata (12 formal patterns that include teaching to use metsubushi, shuriken, and shuko), the kamae and ukemi of Togakure-ryu, as well as Togakure-ryu bikenjutsu and kusarigamajutsu (the kyoketsu shoge techniques). That's part of ninjutsu, it's combat related (mostly escape patterns, but you know) and it's all been taught in the bujinkan at one time or another. Then there are "ninjutsu hints" found all over Hatsumi-sensei's books.

But I understand what you're saying. This stuff from Togakure ryu in my opinion is actually more properly termed "ninpo taijutsu". IMO, Ninjutsu is bansenshukai. Ninpo taijutsu is the part of ninjutsu practiced in the dojo today. Being just a small part of budo taijutsu though I am definately in support of the phrase "ninjutsu is not taught in the bujinkan". The terms ninja dna ninjutsu are overated, while Hatsumi-sensei's budo is under rated. I study in the bujinkan because I am interested in Hatsumi-sensei's budo. if I was more interested in "ninjutsu", I'd travel to Japan and study at the "Koga Iga Ninjutsu Gakuen", in the Shiga Prefecture village of Koga. It's a ninjutsu re-inactment sort of school where you study seven courses and 150 units covering "ninjutsu".

For the topic at hand, anyone who refers to themselves as a ninja will not be taken seriously by me (except in rare cases). Esspecially if it's for promotional purposes. This is why I don't really respect people like Stephen Hayes.I'm much more interested in training with people who are there to pursue Hatsumi-sensei's budo and philosophy, rather than anything labeled ninja.

 

[ginshun]

I suppose I see what you are saying, but it ninjutsu is not taught in the Bujinkan, and the Buj does not produce ninjas, then why does Hatsumi name his books with titles like:

[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][size=-1]The Way Of The Ninja: Secret Techniques
[/size][/font][size=-1]Ninjutsu: History and Tradition
[/size][size=-1]Essence of Ninjutsu
[/size][size=-1]The Grandmaster's Book of Ninja Training
[/size][size=-1]Secrets from the Ninja Grandmaster

ect, ect.

So are you claiming that "The Granmasters Book of Ninja Training" and "Essence of Ninjutsu" are not ninjutsu training manuals? Seems a bit silly to title them as such if that is the case.
It still seems like just a matter of semantics. Some people considering ninjutsu to be a much broader idea than others, without anyone who is really qualified to define it doing so.

I am not trying to be confrontational, but come on. What the heck?

Edit:
Also, why is this forum called the Ninjutsu forum if nobody (or very few) here are learning/studying ninjutsu? Why not change it to the Taijutsu forum?

[/size]

 

[arnisador]

[size=-1]Also, why is this forum called the Ninjutsu forum if nobody (or very few) here are learning/studying ninjutsu? Why not change it to the Taijutsu forum?[/size]

I assume teh answer all around is name recognition. Ninjutsu hasn't, but Taijutsu doesn't.

When I first heard of Maasaki Hatsumi via Black Belt magazine and his own and Stepehen K. Hayes' books, it was Tokagure-ryu Ninjutsu, not any sort of taijutsu. It's hard to get a name change/correction through! Heck, I line in Indiana but I still call 'em the Baltimore Colts half of the time.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

First off, Hatsumi sensei is Japanese. He cannot be expected to be as frank about things as a westerner would.
That "The Grandmaster's Book..." and "Essence of Ninjutsu" are not training manuals is apparent for anyone who opens them and reads a single chapter - the first consists of interviews, the second mostly of tales and anecdotes of different kinds.

I'm all for this forum having its name changed - I suggest we call it "Budo Taijutsu - Ninpo Taijutsu".

 

[rutherford]

Nimravus, you haven't been shown at least some of the techniques for walking silently? Or not leaving a trail in long grass?

Or some of the sentry removal attacks?

I'd say that my training group has about one class a month that strongly emphasises things you would call Ninjutsu.

 

[Tgace]

Does the US Army teach "Ninjutsu" too then? Learned the same things there. So would learning them make you a SOF soldier too?

Little tongue-in-cheek there but do you see my point?

 

[rutherford]

Does the US Army teach "Ninjutsu" too then? Learned the same things there. So would learning them make you a SOF soldier too?

Little tongue-in-cheek there but do you see my point?

I see your point, but not the path I think you're trying to make. Knowing a bit of this or a bit of that does not a Ninja make.

However, I do know of Army National Guard Instructors who teach Ninjutsu to troops. And I don't mean the same techniques drawn from different sources. I mean authentic, this knowledge came straight from Japan.

So what? :idunno:

 

[Tgace]

Well just for conversational purposes, lets see if anybody can agree with definitions. I found these on a google search. Agree/disagree??

http://www.questkagami.com/glossary.html

ninja -- (J) Used casually to describe those who practice ninjutsu, with varying degrees of humor intended. Some people consider a ninja to be literally anyone who studies the art. Others feel it describes someone who uses the art for espionage activities in any time period, and still others feel it is a strictly historical term that no longer applies to anyone alive.

ninjutsu -- (J) Depending on usage, either the collection of martial techniques from the schools taught under Soke Masaaki Hatsumi, or an entire philosophy or lifestyle of survival and efficient, effective action. In the first definition, it is closer to 'taijutsu', and in the second, closer to 'ninpo'. Some even argue that 'ninjutsu' no longer exists, in terms of the espionage agents of ancient Japan, but the term is still commonly used to describe the martial techniques, no matter how traditional or modified in the modern day.

ninpo -- (J) A very loose definition meaning the collection of martial techniques known as ninjutsu together with the lifestyle common to martial artists, warrior philosophies, and the various spiritual techniques that might be associated. Each person will have a different interpretation of what exactly falls into this category, but it is used commonly to refer to "all things associated with a ninjutsu view of life", in contrast to only techniques for combat.

For that matter, how does this equate to a modern martial artist saying that he practices Bushido?

 

[rupton]

Does the US Army teach "Ninjutsu" too then?

Well, at least the jutsu portion

 

[ginshun]

First off, Hatsumi sensei is Japanese. He cannot be expected to be as frank about things as a westerner would.
That "The Grandmaster's Book..." and "Essence of Ninjutsu" are not training manuals is apparent for anyone who opens them and reads a single chapter - the first consists of interviews, the second mostly of tales and anecdotes of different kinds.

I'm all for this forum having its name changed - I suggest we call it "Budo Taijutsu - Ninpo Taijutsu".

First off, if Hatsumi has not been specific about what ninjutsu is then how come you seem to have such a specific idea of its definition?

And that is true about the books, they are not training manuals persay, but there are examples of techniques shown in both of those books. Are those techniquies ninjutsu or not? If not, then why are thry in a book with said title.

I suppose it is like arnisador said, a lot less people would probably buy "Essense of Tiajutsu"

What are we arguing about again?