The Korean roots of TKD

[Kong Soo Do]

Burdick's article was flawed, and while it does have some good information in there, I would not use it as be all end all soruce of Korean martial art history.

I don't recall it being cited as the be-all-to-end-all source. It is a source though as is Tedeshi and those that others have mentioned. It needs to be realized that an exact and precise time line of events is quite difficult since histories have been changed or the attempt has been made. It boils down to a senior changing facts around to fiction and then teaching it to those who in turn pass on the changes. Could have been nationalistic pride, could have been ego, could have be x,y and z. Those in the lineage then report fiction as fact and stick to it regardless of what anyone else brings to the table.

 

[miguksaram]

I don't recall it being cited as the be-all-to-end-all source.

No but everybody and there mother always refer to this report as THE report to go to for history information.

It is a source though as is Tedeshi and those that others have mentioned. It needs to be realized that an exact and precise time line of events is quite difficult since histories have been changed or the attempt has been made. It boils down to a senior changing facts around to fiction and then teaching it to those who in turn pass on the changes.

(Note: I have not read Tedeshi's book so this reply is not about his work.) It does not boil down to people changing facts, it boils down to the need for deeper research and researching outside of the topic itself. There were several kwan founders still alive that could have been contacted to get direct information about origins. There were plenty of senior students to contact as well, which have been very forth coming about the real history. Plus research should be done outside of just immediate circle of thought. When I first became interested in TKD history I started to look through Korean history in order to sift out what some facts and what some fiction is.

Could have been nationalistic pride, could have been ego, could have be x,y and z. Those in the lineage then report fiction as fact and stick to it regardless of what anyone else brings to the table.

Really? How many seniors have you discussed the history with? Perhaps I was just lucky, but all the ones I have talked to have always been quite open with information on what the past was really like. I guess it is because I am an Asiaphile (as you eloquently put it on your other site) that opened the doors for me. Regardless, the truth has always been out there.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

No but everybody and there motheralways refer to this report as THE report to go to for history information.

Everybody always refers to it as the history? Really? I've only seen it even mentioned here a small handful of times over the last couple of years. You should really refrain from using general, broad brush strokes to make a point. Your statement isn't accurate.

(Note: I havenot read Tedeshi's book so this reply is not about his work.)

I'm surprise you haven't. Perhaps you should.

It does not boil down to people changing facts, itboils down to the need for deeper research and researching outside of the topicitself.

We are in 100% disagreement here. It does boil down to people (TKD seniors)changing facts. As just one example, GM Woo claims that the HMK came from the Jidokwan. GM Lee claims he has nothing to do with the JDK and comes straight from the YMK. Who's right? Who are you going to believe. Apparently there was a falling out at that time. So is Woo claiming something that isn't true or is Lee distancing himself because he got bent out of shape? Or was there an agenda one way or the other? A LOT of TKD history boils down to 'who do you want to believe'?

There were plenty of senior students to contact aswell, which have been very forth coming about the real history.

Really? And just how do you KNOW it was the REAL history? Unless you were there and personally know for a fact...you're relying on what someone else has told you. And what they told you may be 100% accurate or 100% BS or a 50/50 split. So you don't KNOW, you are just choosing to BELIEVE.

How many seniors have you discussed the historywith?

More than you know.

Perhaps I was just lucky, but all the ones I have talked to have always been quite open with information on what the past was really like.

And again...you don't know, you're just choosing to believe what you've been told.

I guess it is because I am an Asiaphile

Hmm, someone is a little bent outta shape. If the shoe fits I suppose. Anyone that tries to find justification for buyinga Hapkido BB after a single weekend of training with no prior experience because the instructor is Korean would qualify in my book.

 

[miguksaram]

Everybody always refers to it as the history? Really? I've only seen it even mentioned here a small handful of times over the last couple of years. You should really refrain from using general, broad brush strokes to make a point. Your statement isn't accurate.

Read other forums and you will see it mentioned in there as well. Talk in the circles of those who try do research in TKD history and you will hear them reference it. Look on the internet at some of the people doing research and they will reference him as well. No not every person on the planet use him, but damned if it doesn't seem like it.

I'm surprise you haven't. Perhaps you should.

I am interested in doing so in the future, but at this time I am in the middle of 'Sources of Korean Traditions Vol. 1' and then have three other books to get through after that. Plus still trying to digest the four books I just finished in the last year and comparing notes with what I am finding in the books I am picking up now. Plus planning another trip to do some more research at actual areas in Korea where some of the events are happening. Eventually I will get to his but won't be happening any time soon.

We are in 100% disagreement here. It does boil down to people (TKD seniors)changing facts. As just one example, GM Woo claims that the HMK came from the Jidokwan. GM Lee claims he has nothing to do with the JDK and comes straight from the YMK. Who's right? Who are you going to believe. Apparently there was a falling out at that time. So is Woo claiming something that isn't true or is Lee distancing himself because he got bent out of shape? Or was there an agenda one way or the other? A LOT of TKD history boils down to 'who do you want to believe'?

So then what did you find out when you questioned the two? When you did the research on the arts themselves and compared to each other, what did you discover?

Really? And just how do you KNOW it was the REAL history? Unless you were there and personally know for a fact...you're relying on what someone else has told you. And what they told you may be 100% accurate or 100% BS or a 50/50 split. So you don't KNOW, you are just choosing to BELIEVE.

Ok..let me reword it. There were plenty of seniors that did not dispute that TKD origins came from Japanese karate. There were plenty of seniors and founders who would divulge that they studied karate and that what they studied they used to develop their own art. My point is not what you chose to believe or not believe, my point is doing due diligence in research prior to writing an article on history.

More than you know.

~sigh~ I am sure

And again...you don't know, you're just choosing to believe what you've been told.

Right, that and the fact I have been doing more in depth research and comparing their information to other sources to derive at a more accurate conclusion. So yes, I have been lucky that thus far, their stories check out and so I tend to believe them.

Hmm, someone is a little bent outta shape. If the shoe fits I suppose. Anyone that tries to find justification for buyinga Hapkido BB after a single weekend of training with no prior experience because the instructor is Korean would qualify in my book.

Not bent out of shape, just find a bit cowardly that you would speak that way about me on one forum and then act like a totally different person on another. It just shows the depth of your character, or perhaps the shallowness of it.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I speak to you on the other forum the same way I speak to you here. When you're shoveling BS I call you on it. I've done so here and I've done so there. And since you've lowered yourself to basically name-calling...yeah, you're bent out of shape. Thing is that you had ample opportunity elsewhere to speak out on this and choose not to do so. And bringing it up here probably isn't in the realm of the TOS. Nor is name calling and talking about others character.

 

[miguksaram]

I apologize to the group for once again getting into a pissing contest with KSD. I am reminded why I have not posted on this site for some time. At this junction, if anyone is interested in discussing more on this subject I will be glad to continue. Else, many blessings.

 

[miguksaram]

I speak to you on the other forum the same way I speak to you here. When you're shoveling BS I call you on it. I've done so here and I've done so there. And since you've lowered yourself to basically name-calling...yeah, you're bent out of shape. Thing is that you had ample opportunity elsewhere to speak out on this and choose not to do so. And bringing it up here probably isn't in the realm of the TOS. Nor is name calling and talking about others character.

Actually, I have not shoveled bs. Ummm...where did I call you a name? I spoke of your character, but I do not believe I called you a name in my postings in this thread. But hey whatever, as usual it has been a waste of time trying to discuss anything of actual depth with you that doesn't end up with you just calling Korean seniors liars and never really providing any substance. Good day.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I apologize to the group for once again getting into a pissing contest with KSD.

Jeremy, we have had several good conversations in the past. It is you however that chooses to get pissy. You were the one that brought up another board, which isn't policy here. And if I remember correctly, you were never actually named at all. It is you that chose to identify yourself with the description. If you have an issue, I have a PM or contact me on the other board. This thread isn't the place.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

But hey whatever, as usual it has been a waste of time trying to discuss anything of actual depth with you that doesn't end up with you just calling Korean seniors liars and never really providing any substance. Good day.

Never a waste of time when considering others opinions, comments, experience etc. One may or may not agree with any particular conclusion but agreement isn't required. And obviously some Korean seniors have lied or distorted or confused the truth. That isn't exactly a news flash. You can accept it, ignore it, disregard it or whatever you wish. Good day to you as well.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I would love to hear a discussion on how Taekwon-Do has effected modern Japanese Karate!

From a sporting perspective, I'd say it has definitely made a mark. Sport TKD in some locales can offer a successful business model. If a JMA (or any other really) adapts a successful business model they could have a chance for the same level of success. It isn't a 100% sure thing. From an art perspective, I see JMA/OMA remaining true to their core principles, at least in my area and circles.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

History interests me a great deal. History of martial arts and TKD, in particular, really interests me. I enjoy learning from my peers on this forum about it. I am not a historian. I think that it has been made clear by many that certain sources are not as reliable as they are popular (Burdick comes to mind quickly). It can also be difficult to weed through folk lore, cultural perspective, and contradictory perspectives since we are on the outside looking in.

Jeremy has a very valid point, in that, if you want to know about a particular subset of history, it is extremely difficult to fully understand it without understanding the culture's broader history. Korean history provides a context to have a better understanding of the history of a korean art.

My KJN was born in 1934, and he began practicing martial arts when he was 8 years old. This puts his martial arts training starting around 1942. He has mentioned practicing martial arts with his father in the family tomb in secrecy, since martial arts training was forbidden under Japanese rule.

From David's POV, I wasn't there in the early 1940's.. . So I don't KNOW that it's true, but I CHOOSE to believe my KJN. This tells me that there was some martial arts training going on during the Japanese Occupation that wasn't strictly Karate, otherwise, why the need to practice in secrecy?

I will admit, it isn't something my KJN speaks of often; just bits of history I have caught over the past 28 years.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

This tells me that there was some martial arts training going on during the Japanese Occupation that wasn't strictly Karate, otherwise, why the need to practice in secrecy?

Judo and Kendo appeared to do well during this time. It would seem to me that if martial arts were passed down father to son in Okinawa that it would not be beyond the realm that they could do the same in Korea.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

That's what gets me, if arts were passed from father to son in Korea, why is there such a lack of recognition of such things? It makes sense that, just as OMA's, most of it was oral tradition, but why is there such a lack of support for KMA being practiced during the Japanese occupation? It had to be in secret, otherwise you could be put to death.

I do not deny that the forms and the majority of the technique we see in early TKD/TSD/KSD/etc.. . is undeniably Karate. My KJN never put a name to the martial arts he practiced with his father, but I can only assume that it wasn't Japanese Karate, otherwise why would there be a need to practice in secret? Details one day I may have the opportunity to ask about.. .

 

[Kong Soo Do]

That's what gets me, if arts were passed from father to son in Korea, why is there such a lack of recognition of such things? It makes sense that, just as OMA's, most of it was oral tradition, but why is there such a lack of support for KMA being practiced during the Japanese occupation? It had to be in secret, otherwise you could be put to death.

I do not deny that the forms and the majority of the technique we see in early TKD/TSD/KSD/etc.. . is undeniably Karate. My KJN never put a name to the martial arts he practiced with his father, but I can only assume that it wasn't Japanese Karate, otherwise why would there be a need to practice in secret? Details one day I may have the opportunity to ask about.. .

The lack of representation may stem from the lack of documentation. Which makes it one of those vicious circle things; martial art passed on in secrecy due to the climate of the times yet can't really be verified years/decades later because of the secrecy. Many questions are then raised; did such training happen? If so, how wide spread was it? What did the training consist of i.e. what art? Would it have been one specific art or several different arts? What was the level of proficiency being passed on? How much, if any influence did it have on the formation of TKD?

 

[Gorilla]

It is interesting my kids lineage to Funakoshi is shorter in Tkd than in Shotokan. They hold BB's in both!

Song Moo Kwan....Funakoshi - Ro - Lee - Shin
Shotokan....Unknown

Shotokan and Song Moo Kwan (TKD) virtually the same at their base!!!!

Would you post your thesis I would love to read it!!!!

Since I came late to the party I will start from the beginning and if I am repeating info already posted I apologize.

I just finished doing a thesis on Shotokan in which I submitted that without Gichin Funakoshi there would have never been any Taekwondo. With in that I referenced the following from the Korean Taekkyon Federation (Ref. http://www.taekkyon.or.kr/en/)

While there are a couple of the pioneers who claim ties to Taekkyon, these ties have never been established and even denied from certain Taekkyon higher ups.

 

[miguksaram]

That's what gets me, if arts were passed from father to son in Korea, why is there such a lack of recognition of such things? It makes sense that, just as OMA's, most of it was oral tradition, but why is there such a lack of support for KMA being practiced during the Japanese occupation? It had to be in secret, otherwise you could be put to death.

The first question is what was it that your instructor's dad pass down to him? If it was strictly unarmed combat, was it hanpil, kwon bup, taekkyon or was it karate that the father may have learned?

Some things to keep in mind, the main people who clearly understood military arts were military families and upper caste people. Their children were trained in them as a part of their overall status training or trade training. Keep in mind that whatever your dad did for a living, most likely the sons would follow. Low level merchants/farmers/peasants/slaves, were not privy to a lot of military training. For the most part they did a rotation in serving in the military. While they served other families had to work harder to help provide for them through the military taxes imposed. So when the lower caste people were not serving in the military, for the most part they were working with not much time to anything else. Plus their exposure would not have been as extensive. So the whole handing down military knowledge from father to son would not have been as prevalent as it may have been in other countries.

I do not deny that the forms and the majority of the technique we see in early TKD/TSD/KSD/etc.. . is undeniably Karate. My KJN never put a name to the martial arts he practiced with his father, but I can only assume that it wasn't Japanese Karate, otherwise why would there be a need to practice in secret? Details one day I may have the opportunity to ask about.. .

Because Japan had a very strict rule on Koreans practicing martial arts. Only a privy few had permission to do so. Others would be imprisoned immediately and labeled rebels.

 

[miguksaram]

Would you post your thesis I would love to read it!!!!

Send me your email to [Personal Contact Information deleted per TOS] and I will send you a copy.

 

[miguksaram]

When it comes to family training, there would not be any records saying father taught son. After all its family, why would you record that you taught your son this or that. Again, you have to consider, for the most part, that there was not a "style" like that of mantis kung fu or Shorin-ryu. So there would be no title to pass on. I would liken it to modern day dad teaching his kid the fundamentals of baseball. Eventually the kid will start training for in a more formal setting and perhaps records could be found there, but not in private training with a parent.

 

[Gorilla]

The Shotokan Training and the TKD training has made them very well rounded strikers! The trips/throws with the hand techs in Shotokan mixed with the great kicking of Tkd and you throw in a little Judo and you have complete Martial Artisit!

Remember I am looking at it from more of Sport perspective.

To me it is clear that Korean martials and Japanese Martial Arts are very similar and share common roots!

 

[SahBumNimRush]

When it comes to family training, there would not be any records saying father taught son. After all its family, why would you record that you taught your son this or that. Again, you have to consider, for the most part, that there was not a "style" like that of mantis kung fu or Shorin-ryu. So there would be no title to pass on. I would liken it to modern day dad teaching his kid the fundamentals of baseball. Eventually the kid will start training for in a more formal setting and perhaps records could be found there, but not in private training with a parent.

That's kind of what I'm getting at. It was serious training, but with no emphasis put "style" or "rank." Just because it was not recorded, doesn't mean it didn't take place. I'm okay with that, but it gets me when people try to state that it did not happen because no one wrote it down. Again, IMO, it boils down to context, cultural and historical perspective.

To use your analogy, I wouldn't log baseball stats with my son during training, who would? Does that mean that I didn't work with him?