The Korean roots of TKD

[Kong Soo Do]

Let's take it a step further...

I/we can kinda-sorta understand the distancing from Japanese 'stuff' including the Karate connection from those directly affected by it and directly after it. But that was then, this is now. We all know better now...well at least most of us

But that was 68+ years ago. Time to let it go and move on with factual information. Yet sadly, still today rewrites happen from 'some' quarters. The Japanese attacked the U.S. in Pearl Harbor. And it sucked. But that isn't the Japan of today. To hold a grudge now, about a different time/place/generation isn't a valid position. Now if Japan was still Imperialistic and looking to take over the Pacific, then yeah, perhaps we could justify some 'hate'. Is Japan trying to take over Korea today? They may be vying with each other economically, but what countries aren't.

Bottom line is TKD should now celebrate the rich history of its lineage as well as what it has accomplished on its own. Those that perpetuate myth, distortion, lies etc after the fact in this day and age, particularly those that were never affected in the first place need to be corrected for the good of the art as a whole.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Let's take it a step further...

I/we can kinda-sorta understand the distancing from Japanese 'stuff' including the Karate connection from those directly affected by it and directly after it. But that was then, this is now. We all know better now...well at least most of us

But that was 68+ years ago. Time to let it go and move on with factual information. Yet sadly, still today rewrites happen from 'some' quarters. The Japanese attacked the U.S. in Pearl Harbor. And it sucked. But that isn't the Japan of today. To hold a grudge now, about a different time/place/generation isn't a valid position. Now if Japan was still Imperialistic and looking to take over the Pacific, then yeah, perhaps we could justify some 'hate'. Is Japan trying to take over Korea today? They may be vying with each other economically, but what countries aren't.

Bottom line is TKD should now celebrate the rich history of its lineage as well as what it has accomplished on its own. Those that perpetuate myth, distortion, lies etc after the fact in this day and age, particularly those that were never affected in the first place need to be corrected for the good of the art as a whole.

While I agree that false histories are unnecessary, there are ongoing issues between Japan and Korea. Of course, they are geographically close rivals, but there are also tensions over other issues, such as the Dokdo/Takeshima territorial dispute, the naming of the Sea of Japan/East Sea, and the "comfort women," among others. Many problems may have started with the Japanese colonization of Korea, but they don't end there. I don't want to make it sound like all Koreans hate Japan, but there is still some bitterness for many.

 

[sopraisso]

As a counterpoint there are 2 major conceptula difference between what many consider Hallmarks of Karate and ITF / Chang Hon, tose are:
Karate uses the idea of being "Deeply Rooted" as a requirement for making power. Chang Hon, / ITF does not always require this even using techniques to demonstrate tremendous power while airborne; and
Karate is known for the "Level Headed" movement when advancing or retreating, while The Chang Hon Sine wave uses the leg knee flexion to employ more of the body's musculature for powwer in hand techniques (In sports disciplines referred to as "Closed Chain" linking) resulting in an up and down motion of the body.

Dear Earl,
I concede on regarding to your remark. Those are surely concepts not present in karate. Anyway, I still believe most of other principles remain the same between both arts, what would not be totally a surprise, anyway: efficient striking arts tend to be based on similar principles on body mechanics (ex.: use of hips for power generation, prevalence of striking techniques, way of performing such techniques). Anyway, we can particularly see the similarities in important things (imo) like the forms and general way of regarding the techniques themselves. Most techniques in taekwondo/taekwon-do syllabus have a similar counterpart in karate, and in my opinion this is no coincidence. Honestly, I believe we have more to agree than to disagree here: I don't have an extreme position in this topic (and I don't think you do), I just wanted make a counterpoint, as well, to the "Korean roots" thing.
Furthermore, I agree with your point in your other previous post (mentioning Okinawan and Chinese roots). Anyway, I believe tkd's origins were even largely and notably influenced by some of the "Japanese ways" of performing karate -- what doesn't even feels very pleasant to me: I prefer the "Okinawan ways", so to speak. This "specific" Japanese influence would've been mainly due to the learning of karate by Koreans in mainland Japan universities, mostly in Funakoshi's shotokan. Despite Funakoshi's shorin/shorei's roots, I believe more modern Anko Itosu's methods and even the Japanese context (karate being badly looked by Japanese people, the need to stabilish a "peaceful art" in a new society, etc.) were highly influent to make a deep change in karate how it was teached in Japan in that period. Please, take what I'm saying with a grain of salt, I'm quite in a hurry now and I may be expressing not in the best way I could.
Best regards.

 

[Spookey]

I would love to hear a discussion on how Taekwon-Do has effected modern Japanese Karate!

Now, im not talking about the "hwa-rang introducing martial arts to China" theory....Im talking about how well into the 1970's most of Japan's Karate was still very Okinawan. Hip level snappy side kicks, hands chambered to the hips during kicks, and sparring conducted from traditional stances.

Today the sparring of the JKA has a more side facing bouncing posture, hooking kicks and reverse turning kicks, lead leg sliding side kicks, and jumping back kicks are very prevalent. Perhaps the Nishiyama era. Would this be around the same time as the proliferation of the 12 Original Masters of Taekwondo.

Point is we all know where we came from, and this is very important as stated. Even more so is the importance of looking how far we have come! Korea is at the highest level of International Competition for Judo, while the proliferation of Taekwondo continues to grow in Japan.

The reality is, that we as the new generation (students, instructors, and masters) as those who have not been oppressed by anyone in our lifetime (speaking of the westerners) should be assisting in creating a strong even footing for the present to allow for a better future.

Regards

 

[miguksaram]

While I agree that false histories are unnecessary, there are ongoing issues between Japan and Korea. Of course, they are geographically close rivals, but there are also tensions over other issues, such as the Dokdo/Takeshima territorial dispute, the naming of the Sea of Japan/East Sea, and the "comfort women," among others. Many problems may have started with the Japanese colonization of Korea, but they don't end there. I don't want to make it sound like all Koreans hate Japan, but there is still some bitterness for many.

The Japanese government is continually trying to rewrite their history to justify their actions against Korea, China and other nations it abused. They say that the comfort women joined willingly, this is complete and utter crap! Those women were promised training and jobs in nursing as well as being seamstresses to make uniforms. The purposely took only younger, unmarried women, used them and then killed them or discarded them if they became sick or pregnant. Now they try to justify it or claim it really never happened. So yes there is a bit pissed-offness felt from Koreans.

The pioneers never once denied where they learned their marital arts. If you want to understand more about the history, then there needs to be more in depth look at the political and social climate during the time when the "2000 year old" art was invented. I also suggest reading books like "Under the Black Umbrella" which will give you some insight on why Koreans feel the way they do. That will give you more insight on all this debate that is currently going on.

 

[Rumy73]

The Japanese government is continually trying to rewrite their history to justify their actions against Korea, China and other nations it abused. They say that the comfort women joined willingly, this is complete and utter crap! Those women were promised training and jobs in nursing as well as being seamstresses to make uniforms. The purposely took only younger, unmarried women, used them and then killed them or discarded them if they became sick or pregnant. Now they try to justify it or claim it really never happened. So yes there is a bit pissed-offness felt from Koreans.

The pioneers never once denied where they learned their marital arts. If you want to understand more about the history, then there needs to be more in depth look at the political and social climate during the time when the "2000 year old" art was invented. I also suggest reading books like "Under the Black Umbrella" which will give you some insight on why Koreans feel the way they do. That will give you more insight on all this debate that is currently going on.

This is true to a point. Japan has made apologies about the war. Even so, many Koreans, my wife included, deny their existence. When I showed her one day a list of efforts Japan has made, she scoffed and said the apologies did not come from the proper authority, mind you many came from prime minsters. She is typical of most people in how she receives and appraises information. Hence most Koreans refuse to move forward.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

 

[miguksaram]

I believe these are main reasons.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...denies-wartime-comfort-women-were-forced.html
or this:
http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/politics/AJ201305270109
I think this is a very telltale quote right here form the article:

Hashimoto told reporters on May 13 that the comfort women system, in which women, mainly Koreans, were forced to provide sex to Japanese troops, was a necessary part of the war.

Perhaps this 2012 Youtube clip:

Then there is the whole Dokdo Island controversy. The problem is that the Japanese government is still denying or worse justifying their atrocities to the Koreans and other nations. The sad part is that many of the surviving comfort women will be passing away. Who will mourn them when the vast majority had no families? Who will do ceremonial burial rituals? No one. They will be a small notation in the history books for Korea, while they will not even be footnote in Japan's history books.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

So now we're trying to justify rank shopping/changed martial arts history/lying/dishonest practices/greed/ego because of comfort women from 70+ years ago?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I'm going to expound on my above question.

Racial bigotry, be it black and white or Japanese and Korean is simply an ugly crutch used by some to justify inappropriate actions. And many of those lying their arses off were not affected by 'comfort women' or a dispute over some islands in any way, shape or form. Have the Koreans ever raped their prisoners? Have they ever tortured prisoners or civilians? Have they ever committed immoral acts against the 'enemy' or civilians. Yes on all accounts and they still do today in NK. All cultures can be guilty of that.

Doesn't make lying or being dishonest suddenly reputable. And Korean women weren't the only ones made into sex slaves now were they? People tend to forget their WWII history.

Does the Japanese government lie? Show me a government that doesn't. Sad to say. But it isn't an excuse for dishonorable actions within the martial arts.

 

[miguksaram]

I'm going to expound on my above question.

Racial bigotry, be it black and white or Japanese and Korean is simply an ugly crutch used by some to justify inappropriate actions. And many of those lying their arses off were not affected by 'comfort women' or a dispute over some islands in any way, shape or form. Have the Koreans ever raped their prisoners? Have they ever tortured prisoners or civilians? Have they ever committed immoral acts against the 'enemy' or civilians. Yes on all accounts and they still do today in NK. All cultures can be guilty of that.

Right...NK is well known for many atrocities to its civilians. Never said they weren't. SK is also responsible for many atrocities to its own people in the beginning of their democratic state after the Japanese occupation. Never said they were angels. People here are trying to understand why or how these fallacies in the TKD history began. I am trying to help in answering this by providing reference material that may help someone begin to understand the why. Do the atrocities just the lies in martial arts perhaps not, but then again, you are more hell bent on pointing out that Koreans are liars than you are to try to figure why something like this would happen in the first place.

Doesn't make lying or being dishonest suddenly reputable. And Korean women weren't the only ones made into sex slaves now were they? People tend to forget their WWII history.

I mentioned in my posting

...to justify their actions against Korea, China and other nations it abused.

I acknowledge that Korea was not the only country that they did this against, though vast majority were Koreans.

Does the Japanese government lie? Show me a government that doesn't. Sad to say. But it isn't an excuse for dishonorable actions within the martial arts.

They lie, they also justify, and they change their history books to show that they were in the right.

 

[miguksaram]

So now we're trying to justify rank shopping/changed martial arts history/lying/dishonest practices/greed/ego because of comfort women from 70+ years ago?

I am not trying to justify that at all. I was merely expanding on Jaemisu's point.

 

[miguksaram]

While in part influenced by karate and kung fu, TKD has Korean DNA.

http://youtu.be/wUPeq47bRjk

Since I came late to the party I will start from the beginning and if I am repeating info already posted I apologize.

I just finished doing a thesis on Shotokan in which I submitted that without Gichin Funakoshi there would have never been any Taekwondo. With in that I referenced the following from the Korean Taekkyon Federation

Moreover, new martial arts called Taekwondo is establisted after Korean War and there were confusion between Taekkyon and Taekwondo. But these two martial arts have nothing in common and are completely different.

(Ref. http://www.taekkyon.or.kr/en/)

While there are a couple of the pioneers who claim ties to Taekkyon, these ties have never been established and even denied from certain Taekkyon higher ups.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

...you are more hell bent on pointing out that Koreans are liars than you are to try to figure why something like this would happen in the first place.

This is incorrect and always has been. I've never broad-brushed Koreans as a whole. But I have pointed out the instances where some have and then shaken my head when some try to scramble to somehow justify deceitful, immoral, dishonest or dishonorable actions.

 

[miguksaram]

All the countries of the area had martial arts, and they all mixed a little bit in each other, Korea was a very busy road to go to/from japan, china, mongolia etc.

I believe the problem is that while all countries have some sort of indigenous military fighting system, not all countries established a systematic unarmed combative system, like karate, kung fu, etc. We tend to think of martial arts as a set system of established criteria like that of wado-ryu or taekwondo. In this essence Korea lacked in this area, having only a couple of indigenous arts like ssirum, taekkyon. Most anything else would have been strictly military combative systems which was 90% armed combat and 10% unarmed.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Since I came late to the party I will start from the beginning and if I am repeating info already posted I apologize.

I just finished doing a thesis on Shotokan in which I submitted that without Gichin Funakoshi there would have never been any Taekwondo. With in that I referenced the following from the Korean Taekkyon Federation (Ref. http://www.taekkyon.or.kr/en/)

While there are a couple of the pioneers who claim ties to Taekkyon, these ties have never been established and even denied from certain Taekkyon higher ups.

Good post and I agree.

 

[miguksaram]

Deleted post....just not worth the posting.

 

[miguksaram]

Funny enough : if you consider how man years japanese people spent in Korea, there could not be such thing as purely japanese karate
Saying there is no karate in taekwondo is as wrong as saying that there is no taekwondo (of taekyon, or any korean art) in karate.

If you look at Korean history, interaction with Japan, during any peace time with them, was limited to certain kingdoms. Those interactions were based on merchant exchanges. As I pointed out earlier, there were no unarmed combative system around save ssirum and taekkyon. So I doubt there was much influence of unarmed Korean arts making its way to Japan. Not saying entirely impossible, but very highly unlikely.

I do not know what percentage of those transactions between Japan and Korea came from interactions from Okinawa, where karate was developed. So it would again, very difficult to firmly say, Korea had any influence on Japanese unarmed combat.

 

[miguksaram]

In fact, it is a matter for debate, as I studied history of taekwondo and korean martial art, and have been led to a different opinion than yours

I recommend reading more Korean history. This will help more than martial art history. Reason being you will get more in-depth look at political relations between the two countries as well as better feel for the culture during ancient times.

 

[miguksaram]

Dakin Burdick had an excellent article years ago in the JAMA. Marc Tedishi also has quite an extensive historical background in his books on HKD and TKD.

Burdick's article was flawed, and while it does have some good information in there, I would not use it as be all end all soruce of Korean martial art history.

 

[miguksaram]

You've said several times that Taekwon-Do was just Shotokan in the beginning. (You also seem to think that any development of the style isn't Taekwon-Do, at least you've said as much in the past, IIRC.) But the fact is that there were at least two Kwans that were influenced by Chinese arts and they were part of the unification movement to form Taekwon-Do. QED, your statement isn't accurate.

Pax,

Chris

That is correct, Chang Moo Kwan and Moo Duk Kwan (though this on is iffy on the Chinese influence). Also Chang Moo Kwan was influenced by Shudokan not Shotokan.