The BJJ attitude

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Cudos to Hedgehoney for calling "Bull Sheet". BJJ schools don't do heel hooks on newbies. Higher belts don't go all out on first-timers with no BJJ training.

When I took my first BJJ classes, they let me get away with a lot of stuff that they wouldn't let me do so easily after the first month.

 

[gusano]

I could and would heel hook a beginner, because I know I wouldn't hurt them. People with a real level of experience can try all sorts of stuff because they have the time in to know when someone is going to get hurt.

thats a grand proclomation in its own right! It's easy to accidently ruin someones knee with a heel hook. They shouldn't be done by beginners and beginners shouldn't have them done on them.

 

[Shogun]

BJJ schools don't do heel hooks on newbies

The person that heelhooked me was one of my good friends. it was after class. That and he knew I have had previous MA experience.

once again, we were'nt going full speed. The guys that I grappled with WERE NOT going full speed. I will keep repeating this until it is known. I WILL apologize for sounding rude, thats not how I meant to come across. I am humble most of the time. I do however, disagree with some of the statements made. I WAS NOT GOING FULL SPEED, AND NEITHER WERE THE PEOPLE I GRAPPLED. its that simple. I posted that they are all great grapplers, did you tell them I said that, Mr Wonderful? It may be your business to call out crap (which I didnt post on purpose, I just didnt post the full story~My bad~) but it is not your business to ruin any possible friendship with the Gyms I attend. So keeping this polite and respectful, PLEASE keep personal issues to you and yourself.

Regards,
KE

 

[MJS]

I know that I could and would heel hook a beginner, because I know I wouldn't hurt them. People with a real level of experience can try all sorts of stuff because they have the time in to know when someone is going to get hurt.

While this is true to a point, making sure that proper control is used is also important. Keep in mind, that regardless of our skill level, we dont know how flexable our partner is. When applying a lock, we can use a slight amount of pressure and get the person to tap, while others are like rubber and will not feel it until you just about reach the breaking point. I've also had some people be macho tough guys and wait until the last minute to tap. That is very dangerous and can lead to some serious injury. Regardless of what the tech. is, they all should be applied using the utmost amount of control. I was out of training for quite a while, due to a newbie doing a leg lock on me. I came very close to tearing the ACL in my left leg. What good is going all out, if its gonna mean your partner is not going to be able to train with you?

Mike

 

[Shogun]

I can see both sides of it. A beginner might not know how to take a heel hook, and hurt himself. his opponent might not have to do anything! However, my friend and I were taking it easy on each other, and werent really "forcing" anything. Plus, he knew I'd done heel hooks before, so he probably didnt worry about it much, since I'd done some in Taijutsu class before.

cheers,
KE

 

[hedgehogey]

Hey, i'm not trying to ruin your friendship with anybody. I'm just repeating what you said. You claimed to "wipe the floor" with one of their students. You then said you found your ninja stuff "more effective for actual combat".

You know what I think? I think you confused some drill they were doing, with actual rolling.

 

[Shogun]

Most of the stuff I was talking about was after class, with my friend. The big guy was one of the less experienced guys in the class (he was still good, though).
I understand why you probably got/get a little edgy when someone puts down your sport. I get a little upset too when that happens. but ask any non-BJJ guy (or girl) on this forum, and they will tell you that the ring is not the same as the street or battlefield, and that BJJ, while it has its place in the street, is mostly a ring sport. Its not for me, unless its a supplement.
BJJ came from Judo. Jigoro Kano took all lethal and sub-lethal moves out of Judo so it could be practiced at full speed.
"ninja stuff", as you called it, is real-time combat. it decides a battle, and gets you to a safer place, as quick as possible. locked under someone in a guard is not a safer spot. especially if they have a knife, broken bottle, tire iron, or any type of sharp or dangerous object. I respect BJJ, I respect Tap or Snap, and I respect anyone who puts effort into the martial arts, what I dont respect is someone who thinks that their art or way of thinking is better than anyone elses. if you have any questions, PM me.

Cheers,
KE

 

[hedgehogey]

Yeah, I have a question:

Why trot out the same tired "street vs sport" arguements which have been addressed a thousand times before? What do they have to do with the topic?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Warning: :soapbox:

"ninja stuff", as you called it, is real-time combat. it decides a battle,

You have got to be kidding. EVery BJK guy I've randori'd with has been overhwelmed with the "aliveness" of the experience. They have had pretty moves with complex aiki concepts buried within, but almost no experience applying them in the kiln of preperatory training. Myself, I've sparred & rolled with many a BJK+offshoots/indies guys, and have yet to be unpleasantly surprised (again, great moves, just not much experience applying them against a vigorously resisting and counter-attacking opponent).

I was training a kenpo white belt for an appearance on Battledome, and we worked for about 2 weeks on basic BJJ grappling; 10 hours on basic arnis drills; and about 20 hours on kickboxing/sparring skills. One day, nearer to the event, we suited up in full kendo armour for some red-line panic-mode training. He got about 1 hour of extremely fundamental sowrdsmanship training ("hold it in front of you where it's practical, not pretty; whack the guy a lot, preferably where he ain't covered" kinda basic) when we were joined by our resident 4th dan BJK dude, who has travelled the world (Europe, South America, Japan, North America) training with different BJK & offshoot indie instructors to gain a thorough understanding of his art.

In the suits, he was so lost, he took a serious beating, having been nothing but a striking post for the student (but he looked good warming up with the to ahead of time...pretty postures, and all). Good thing Hatsumi-sama recently named the year of the sword(s), because from what I've seen, a refresher is needed bad.

Suits came off, and we sparred. He admittedly (after being bonked about a bit) had never trained in a continuous sparring situation like this before. He'd throw an ichimonji-like thrust to the body or head, which would get sloughed off and answered with a 5-shot combo, driving.

He got tired of being pummeled, so we rolled. Yeah, he was good at bending fingers & toes if we weren't paying attention, but aside from that he really had no clue how to navigate a clash, competitive take-down struggles, or wrasslin when the whole thing came to the floor.

I've visited -- and been visited by -- multiple shinoboys, and have not yet been given cause to step back and give pause. I feel kinda sorry for the guys who spend months arguing about pedigrees in the ninja forums, because so far, even the pure bloods I've trained with move like their coordinationally challenged, or have just never really sparred or grappled in their lives.

Don't get me wrong: the taijutsu techs are absolutely awesome, and I leave training very sore after each session. But it is the same problem I see with the "let's pretend" training I see in Kenpo (my main art). Some guy throws an attack, then stands there frozen in space and time while counter techniques are negotiated in their space. No follow-up hits from the attacker, no barrages or combos, just counters leading to aiki tie-ups (cool ones, but not alive). The taijutsu I learned was deeply influenced by Paris judo and hard-style kyukoshin-kai & isshin-ryu sparring, so there was always randori, sparring, etc., through all combat ranges.

I'm sure this will tick off the ninja online, leading to blasts on the rep points (bummer, too...I was almost destined to be famous), but from what I have seen, the actual number of hours spent in rigorous, strenuous contest with another warm body are minimal...and they do matter. It's how you actually learn to apply what you've learned to someone who doesn't want you to.

As a side thought of the silliness of the "BJJ is sport, not combat" thing, world-traveller ninja-boy thought it was a good idea to torque my wrist while I was mounted on him. Spoke of using pain to dismount someone while he did it. Yep, it hurt...and it took him a moment to emerge from his world of fantasy to see the repeated inward slamming elbows I was aiming at his head for effect, but pulling out of courtesy (to make a point). It only takes a couple of contacts from those blows in that position to definitively determine the combat effectiveness of BJJ. Did anybody see the kickboxer in one of the 1st UFC's who had been working on his grappling "just a bit" (after being beaten by Royce the previous time around), who mounted one of Bussey's senior ninja-boys, and elbowed him till it looked like skull was showing through the cuts? Remember how dizzy and looped the Warrior International fighter was...feet seizing in shock from the beating, stopped by the judge because the ninja had no idea what happened, or how to stop it? And he (the kick-boxer) wasn't even trained for any great length of time in how to gain or keep superior positions, much less natural weapons available for striking from these positions. He basically found himself in the mount (looking surprised, but pleased), and took advantage of it.

And if you think he only knew to strike because of his kickboxing experience, watch some of the Vale Tudo grudge matches from Brazil, pre-BJJ coming to US. Common formula: Mount, Beat, then Choke out or break bones. And they beat from any of the superior positions, with punches, elbows, knees, head-butts, kicks, and so on. My wrist would've been sore, but the side of his face would have been caved in from about a dozen elbows he wouldn't have been able to block (I was kneeling on his ipsilateral hand). Reality check on the deadly ninja battle skills, bubba.

I trained and brawled with some of the first Hayes students to proliferate in underground OC clubs, and was not impressed. Shame, really, because I know there are some sick-deadly practitioners out there I wouldn't wanna mess with (i.e., doubt I want to cross Mr. Seago while he's busy going bump in the night).

I am old, out of shape, and haven't been on the mat for years. I'm still sure I know enough about BJJ that, if you don't know what you're doing, you'll just place yourself in a number of waiting mouse traps as a natural result of the instinctual response to struggle to move away from pressure and pain. Worse yet, I can pop ya from just about any position in the process...and I can reach your eyes, too!

This sort of knowledge about what we can do when we turn the screws tighter, combined with the fact we actually get down and dirty (not theoretical, but lotsa contact) when we train, may be where much of the BJJ attitude comes from. People who have never been on the mat telling us that their kata preparation would magically keep us from snatching them to the floor, beating them bloody, breaking their bones and choking them till their cold and blue like a killer whale yanking a beached seal back to the depths for consumption. As if, somehow, those who have been in it for awhile haven't done just that to many well-accomplished "combat" martial artists.

Get it through deinen nogginen...BJJ is one of the most effective approaches to personal combat, and this point is bourne out assuredly everyday in small-level challenge matches between proponents of different disciplines, as well as in unecessary street-fights engaged in by the young and stupid who train in BJJ. Perfect? No. Not by any means, making the BJJ attitude all the more annoying. But combine it with what you know about scratching eyes, chewing adams apples, etc., and it's a darn good system for establishing and maintaining superior positions from which you can do nasty things to him, while he can't do them to you.

Off the soapbox,

Dave

 

[Shogun]

I was refering to getting into a fight, OUTSIDE of a Dojo. Yeah, sure, this subject has been adressed a thousand times. but its because people keep ignoring it.

You have got to be kidding. EVery BJK guy I've randori'd with has been overhwelmed with the "aliveness" of the experience.

every Booj dojo trains differently. not all train in a particular way. basically there is no Cookie cutters in the Bujinkan.

all of this howver is going off topic. I have drawn out exactly what I have originally posted. I stated that BJJ guys think there is nothing that can touch their art. None of them can keep their cool when someone isnt representing it. I have proved my original point.

regards,
Ke

 

[JDenz]

lol which goes back to my point at the beginning of the thread also. Everyone that thinks there is a BJJ atitude also has a attitude about there martial art. In all the time I have been on martial talk I have seen this arguement over and over agian lol. Everyone is going to think what they do is best because they are the ones doing it.

 

[Shogun]

Of course. lol.

we are all fanboys here. I see the attitude in myself. I do, however, see it MORE in BJJ guys (or girls), though.

By the way, I love my art. lol.

 

[grappling_mandala]

Ego always gets in the way of good training.

Dave

 

[JDenz]

No way ego makes for awsome training.

 

[ace]

:samurai:

lol which goes back to my point at the beginning of the thread also. Everyone that thinks there is a BJJ atitude also has a attitude about there martial art.


I have seen this as well
In all the time I have been on martial talk I have seen this arguement over and over agian lol.



This Statement is Verry True
Everyone is going to think what they do is best because they are the ones doing it.

 

[Shogun]

No way ego makes for awsome training.

..mmmmmmmm......Eggos......

 

[Fight with attitude]

No way ego makes for awsome training.

No it doesn't...if I had an ego when I sparred I wouldn't go out of my comfort zone. If I didn't go out of my comfort zone I would stop progressing very fast.

You wouldn't share information with other training partners about how to tap you out.

It's not fun training with another person with an ego...I've training with people that had egos and people who didn't...I have learned and had more fun with the people without egos.

 

[Lisa]

..mmmmmmmm......Eggos......

LOL! Plain or blueberry?

but back to the thread.

I would much rather train with people with no ego then with those that have one. Confidence in what you are doing and the ability to help others is one thing, but arrogance is completely another.

 

[Shogun]

LOL! Plain or blueberry?

Depends on the day.

There is a very thin line between Confidence and ego. One should gain confidence, otherwise they will eventually give up, or stop learning.

 

[Barra Brazil]

i beleive that the bjj guys with the "attitude" are still riding the wave of gracie's wins in the early ufc's. he just plain made everything else look silly. but we live in an age of information and it didn't take long for the goodies to get leaked out. not to mention the $ to be made. what a goldmine. little guy destroys all with secret system. the gracies traded their secrets for $. well soon enough everybody who wanted to compete, watched, studied and learned. a decade later if you go into a mma compitition with just bjj, you'll get smoked. you must train muay thai or some kind of kickboxing as well. and you had better study up on your wrestling too. i also believe that a lot of stand up martial artists believe that because of this, bjj is not as dominant as it was back in the early 90's. i think one should keep in mind that the only thing that stops bjj is bjj. if you don't have at least a fair understanding of bjj, as just about every mma competitor does, then you're in the same boat as those poor guys back in ufc's 1,2 and 3. i just returned from three month's in rio and let me tell you, everybody down there knows the diference between sport, vale tudo and a streat fight. as far as a "real street fight" or multiple enemy situations, you have no idea what will happen on the street. this is not a bruce lee movie, right? these people really mean it. yes, a clean knockout with a -----or----- would be great but anybody who has been in a few street fights knows that short of a blindside sucker punch it is not so easy to knock a man out. would it be easy to take you out with one shot? how would you fair against yourself? we should always assume our opponent is at least as good as us. well this makes the question of multiple attackers kind of rough, no? how would you fair against three of you? do you think you could keep three of you from taking you to the ground? mmmmm, maybe a little ground work might be a good idea. don't under estimate your opponent"s". he's been training hard and he knows how to take you down, he knows how to kick and he know's how to punch. he has a weapon and friends. behind you.
train hard