The big disconnect. Or a follow up from Aikido vs MMA.

[punisher73]

Agreed. We sometimes use the "Frankenpush" for drills, to work on specific movement (because it makes timing easy), but when we practice application of technique, I get snitty if I see that Frankenpush show up. Some drunk guy might do that, but I've never found any evidence of it (no videos, and no reports from the field that have much credibility), so I consider it unlikely. A push is likely to either be 1) a distraction or taunt (very little power), 2) an attempt to move you (some power, but a compact push), or 3) an attempt to put you on your *** (lots of power, weight forward of the foot). The third one is what they should be using in this case, and it still generally starts just a small step away. If they're doing an entry version of the technique, the second push can work, as well, though the timing is tight enough that it's unlikely to be a conscious choice.

Part of the reason I started teach some boxing-style punches and movement is to improve the quality of attacks.

Agree with this, just thought I would add to it. I did give an example of a "non-drunk" push from a distance that I just saw last week at work. Also, I have seen a combination #2 where the guy pushes and the other moves back a few feet and the attacker moves in to keep driving them back with a follow up push as they are TRYING to escalate/work up the courage to punch. I have also seen #2 happen where the push creates the distance and then the guy uses a big step to close the distance for a punch.

Even in the video posted of the "brutal" fights. Many of them didn't show any pre-cursor just the two guys squaring off in fighting stances, which even in a "street fight" has more in common with a sparring match in as far as certain dynamics. BUT, that is the exact reason that many TMA's forget in their training. There are times that it happens that way even if you are trying to de-escalate etc. and the person is still itching to fight and isn't going to let you leave, and it will appear to be more a "sparring" scenario for the fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

at no point have i said you should hit a screw driver with max power

And, as I said in the post you just quoted, I'm not referring to anything like max power. If you're talking about the tap used to install a tack, I'm not sure what use that has in evaluating durability of anything is - my hand can take that without showing a bruise.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agree with this, just thought I would add to it. I did give an example of a "non-drunk" push from a distance that I just saw last week at work. Also, I have seen a combination #2 where the guy pushes and the other moves back a few feet and the attacker moves in to keep driving them back with a follow up push as they are TRYING to escalate/work up the courage to punch. I have also seen #2 happen where the push creates the distance and then the guy uses a big step to close the distance for a punch.

Even in the video posted of the "brutal" fights. Many of them didn't show any pre-cursor just the two guys squaring off in fighting stances, which even in a "street fight" has more in common with a sparring match in as far as certain dynamics. BUT, that is the exact reason that many TMA's forget in their training. There are times that it happens that way even if you are trying to de-escalate etc. and the person is still itching to fight and isn't going to let you leave, and it will appear to be more a "sparring" scenario for the fight.

Agreed. With some space/distance management, the movement may start from more than a step away, but the push generally won't. They might need 2-3 steps to close the distance, but they will typically push when they think they are in range for contact. If they over-commit, they mis-judge the range, or you draw them out with good movement at the last moment, it's possible to get the same weight commitment that's seen in those drills. It's just a tighter timing.

 

[hoshin1600]

We sometimes use the "Frankenpush" for drills, to work on specific movement

Franken push is a good descriptive term. i sometimes find it difficult to describe aikido habits to non practitioners. the running around in circles trying to grab tori's wrist like a dog chasing its own tail is another one.

i think the mechanics of the standard aikido attacks are important. the munetsuki and shomen/ yokomen strikes have a different mechanical structure than punches. in yokomen uchi the elbow joint is low and the palm is upward (comparatively) , with a punch the elbow is high and palm is down. this subtle difference changes everything when it comes to tori/ nage technique options. they are representative of weapon strikes not empty hand strikes. so what that means is that basically aikido does not train for the most common attack which is a punch. if we wanted to improve aikido as a self defense art maybe we could start there.

 

[jobo]

And, as I said in the post you just quoted, I'm not referring to anything like max power. If you're talking about the tap used to install a tack, I'm not sure what use that has in evaluating durability of anything is - my hand can take that without showing a bruise.

your just jumping from one extreme to the other, between the lightest tap and full force there is an infinite number of different forces that can be applied by a hammer to a tool for various applications, and a considerable number of different types and weights of hammer with which to hit them

 

[Gerry Seymour]

your just jumping from one extreme to the other, between the lightest tap and full force there is an infinite number of different forces that can be applied by a hammer to a tool for various applications, and a considerable number of different types and weights of hammer with which to hit them

No, you appear to be doing that. I specified that a moderate strike - just enough to drive a glue nail - would be sufficient. You went back to the max hit. If a moderate hit isn't what you're talking about, I'm not even sure why you brought up a hammer.

 

[drop bear]

I am not sure what you mean. I think John in the clip said there was not much she could have done, but that it's a good reminder to always stay alert.
As for myself posting it, it was to show the difference in extremes from a dojo munetsuki and a real attack which often happens from an ambush.
What is notable is the mechanics difference between the munetsuki as shown and the street fight punches. The munetsuki has its purpose as a possible knife thrust, but untrained people throwing punches come from all kinds of weird angles that are not trained for. Some may say that aikido also do shomen uchi and yokomen uchi but again these are still not representational of the same mechanics

And timing. Bear in mind people in these fights when they bet hit haven't managed to either move their head or their hand a couple of inches to get themselves out of danger. Let alone perform any sort of move.

 

[jobo]

No, you appear to be doing that. I specified that a moderate strike - just enough to drive a glue nail - would be sufficient. You went back to the max hit. If a moderate hit isn't what you're talking about, I'm not even sure why you brought up a hammer.

i didn't bring up the hammer, though you did introduce the electric. Screwdriver, a very,cheap one at that by the,sounds of it

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i didn't bring up the hammer, though you did introduce the electric. Screwdriver, a very,cheap one at that by the,sounds of it

Quite cheap, indeed. And quite effective. I have more expensive ones (and tougher ones), but this is the one that drives screws the best.

 

[jobo]

Quite cheap, indeed. And quite effective. I have more expensive ones (and tougher ones), but this is the one that drives screws the best.

intresting, assuming your not just exaggerating to make a point, which previous experience suggests you are prone to!.
what quality does it have that makes it better a driving screws, as the more expensive ones are likely to be better designed and use high quality components.

i have two l elecy drivers,( three if you count my 30 yo bosh) one a chain supper market own brand, that cost 20 quid and one a dewalt,that cost over a hundred.

the cheap one is extremely robust and comes with a 3year guarantee, the expensive one is also robust but comes with just a 1 year warranty.

at first glance its fair to say the cheap one is every bit as good as the expensive one at driving a screws and should last at least as long.
but using them is night and day, the dear one is much lighter,and the battery lasts much longer between charges and charges quicker. It's smaller to fit in tight places it has better speed control, is considerably lighter, vibrates less and the ergonomics much much better.

if i have ten screws to drive it makes little difference which one i use. If I'm screwing all day then the ease of using the dewalt driver makes the extra 80 quid a bargain

nb, by far the best thing you can do is invest the not inconsiderable amount required to get some high quality diamond tipped bits

 

[Gerry Seymour]

intresting, assuming your not just exaggerating to make a point, which previous experience suggests you are prone to!.
what quality does it have that makes it better a driving screws, as the more expensive ones are likely to be better designed and use high quality components.

i have two l elecy drivers,( three if you count my 30 yo bosh) one a chain supper market own brand, that cost 20 quid and one a dewalt,that cost over a hundred.

the cheap one is extremely robust and comes with a 3year guarantee, the expensive one is also robust but comes with just a 1 year warranty.

at first glance its fair to say the cheap one is every bit as good as the expensive one at driving a screws and should last at least as long.
but using them is night and day, the dear one is much lighter,and the battery lasts much longer between charges and charges quicker. It's smaller to fit in tight places it has better speed control, is considerably lighter, vibrates less and the ergonomics much much better.

if i have ten screws to drive it makes little difference which one i use. If I'm screwing all day then the ease of using the dewalt driver makes the extra 80 quid a bargain

nb, by far the best thing you can do is invest the not inconsiderable amount required to get some high quality diamond tipped bits

The quality it has is that of driving screws well. It drives reliably. It gets the job done. It has a bit more power than my more expensive drivers, and the battery lasts a bit longer.

As you point out, if I have 10 screws to drive, any would work (assuming they aren't 3" screws into hardwood - then I need the power.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

nb, by far the best thing you can do is invest the not inconsiderable amount required to get some high quality diamond tipped bits

I probably should do that at some point. For now, I'm working my way through the literally dozens of bits (both driver and drill) I've received as gifts over the years. Most are incomplete (broken/worn-out bits removed), so someday I'll reach a point where it makes sense to replace them all.

Wait, now we're not even discussing the analogy. This is a hell of a swerve, even for us!

 

[jobo]

The quality it has is that of driving screws well. It drives reliably. It gets the job done. It has a bit more power than my more expensive drivers, and the battery lasts a bit longer.

As you point out, if I have 10 screws to drive, any would work (assuming they aren't 3" screws into hardwood - then I need the power.

pilot holes, always drill pilot holes, it takes seconds and makes a substantial difference to how easy it is to drive the screw and more importantly doesn't chew up the bit or deform the screw slots, so you can get it out again with ease should that need arise,

that leaves the question of why your cheap driver has more power? Power you wouldn't need if you used pilot holes, perhaps you bought a lower powered tool?
perhaps the clue is the battery lasting longer! So More likely that your stuck in a cycle that the less you use a battery powered tool the less power it has. Quite the worst thing you can do to them is leave them for months at at time with out use or charge, the second worst thing is to leave them on charge with out use for weeks at a time, eventually they will have no battery life or power to speak of

 

[Gerry Seymour]

pilot holes, always drill pilot holes, it takes seconds and makes a substantial difference to how easy it is to drive the screw and more importantly doesn't chew up the bit or deform the screw slots, so you can get it out again with ease should that need arise,

that leaves the question of why your cheap driver has more power? Power you wouldn't need if you used pilot holes, perhaps you bought a lower powered tool?
perhaps the clue is the battery lasting longer! So More likely that your stuck in a cycle that the less you use a battery powered tool the less power it has. Quite the worst thing you can do to them is leave them for months at at time with out use or charge, the second worst thing is to leave them on charge with out use for weeks at a time, eventually they will have no battery life or power to speak of

You're asking a lot of questions about why it's more powerful than the others. But does that really matter? My measure of quality is the ability to drive screws (sometimes skipping pilot holes when the wood won't split and the screw can handle the torque) reliably. It does that well. I don't need it to withstand much impact, so the fact that it's less impact resistant isn't important to the quality from my viewpoint. That's the point. If it was being used on a construction site, in a theatre scene shop, or other places where impact is more of an issue, then that comes back into the equation.

The analogy is punching power. It's not a useful measure for BJJ grappling competition ability, since they don't punch. And the ability to to a single-leg takedown isn't a useful measure of a boxer's ability for the same reason. Quality has to do with the function needed. That's why very high quality medical instruments are rarely designed to withstand hammer blows. It could be done, but it's not worth the cost.

EDIT: And to address the power issue: that's my only 18V driver. All others are 12V or lower, though of decidedly more robust build. I chose the implements to suit their intended application.

 

[JP3]

Franken push is a good descriptive term. i sometimes find it difficult to describe aikido habits to non practitioners. the running around in circles trying to grab tori's wrist like a dog chasing its own tail is another one.

i think the mechanics of the standard aikido attacks are important. the munetsuki and shomen/ yokomen strikes have a different mechanical structure than punches. in yokomen uchi the elbow joint is low and the palm is upward (comparatively) , with a punch the elbow is high and palm is down. this subtle difference changes everything when it comes to tori/ nage technique options. they are representative of weapon strikes not empty hand strikes. so what that means is that basically aikido does not train for the most common attack which is a punch. if we wanted to improve aikido as a self defense art maybe we could start there.

Look into the Merritt Stevens self-defense system.

Mokuren Dojo: Merritt Stevens Aikido

This is what I've been using to teach people how to deal with punches (all kinds, you just change the initial attack from lunge Frankenstein style, to well-performed straights, hooks and crosses etc.). And, you are performing it, once the patterns start to make themselves known, to a non-compliant partner, i.e. they don't just let the technique complete.

 

[jobo]

You're asking a lot of questions about why it's more powerful than the others. But does that really matter? My measure of quality is the ability to drive screws (sometimes skipping pilot holes when the wood won't split and the screw can handle the torque) reliably. It does that well. I don't need it to withstand much impact, so the fact that it's less impact resistant isn't important to the quality from my viewpoint. That's the point. If it was being used on a construction site, in a theatre scene shop, or other places where impact is more of an issue, then that comes back into the equation.

The analogy is punching power. It's not a useful measure for BJJ grappling competition ability, since they don't punch. And the ability to to a single-leg takedown isn't a useful measure of a boxer's ability for the same reason. Quality has to do with the function needed. That's why very high quality medical instruments are rarely designed to withstand hammer blows. It could be done, but it's not worth the cost.

EDIT: And to address the power issue: that's my only 18V driver. All others are 12V or lower, though of decidedly more robust build. I chose the implements to suit their intended application.

SO....... just to sum up, this whole analogy that you cheap and not very robust driver is by far the best at driving screws, is based on it being more powerful than your other drivers, abd its more powerful because you deliberately bought lower powered screw drivers in your good quality selection. This is something of a self inflicted issue and nothing to do with the actual quality of the tools. Further more the statement that the higher quality drivers are inferior at driving is only true if you insist on using poor tecneque, ie not using pilot holes. Other wise they would be every bit as efficient at the task.

this is like claiming the hay maker is your best punch because. You cant be bothered to do the other punches with good techneque,

 

[Gerry Seymour]

SO....... just to sum up, this whole analogy that you cheap and not very robust driver is by far the best at driving screws, is based on it being more powerful than your other drivers, abd its more powerful because you deliberately bought lower powered screw drivers in your good quality selection. This is something of a self inflicted issue and nothing to do with the actual quality of the tools. Further more the statement that the higher quality drivers are inferior at driving is only true if you insist on using poor tecneque, ie not using pilot holes. Other wise they would be every bit as efficient at the task.

this is like claiming the hay maker is your best punch because. You cant be bothered to do the other punches with good techneque,

Yes. Precisely. The others aren't as good at driving screws. I could easily have gotten one that was more impact resistant AND had the power and battery life of the cheap one. But I didn't need it. So, among mine, the "best" one is the one that best fits my needs.

See, you seem to want me to be saying there's something inherently wrong with the others. There's not. I simply didn't need a higher-end driver. My best one was inexpensive and has done everything I've ever needed. I reach for the others mostly because they are lighter, so if I don't need the extra power, they are good enough.

But remember, this all started with you asserting that the ability to withstand a hammer blow was an important measurement. And that's true if it measures something important to the utility of the device. In my case, it does not.

 

[jobo]

Yes. Precisely. The others aren't as good at driving screws. I could easily have gotten one that was more impact resistant AND had the power and battery life of the cheap one. But I didn't need it. So, among mine, the "best" one is the one that best fits my needs.

See, you seem to want me to be saying there's something inherently wrong with the others. There's not. I simply didn't need a higher-end driver. My best one was inexpensive and has done everything I've ever needed. I reach for the others mostly because they are lighter, so if I don't need the extra power, they are good enough.

But remember, this all started with you asserting that the ability to withstand a hammer blow was an important measurement. And that's true if it measures something important to the utility of the device. In my case, it does not.

BUT assuming your,cheap driver isn't a Chinese fake, the manufacturer WILL have impact test the case with a " hammer" it won't have got a standard mark with out such a test, so no matter how you wrap it up, that,design if bot your actual drill,, it has been tested by hitting with a hammer

 

[Gerry Seymour]

BUT assuming your,cheap driver isn't a Chinese fake, the manufacturer WILL have impact test the case with a " hammer" it won't have got a standard mark with out such a test, so no matter how you wrap it up, it has been tested by hitting with a hammer

If you say so. All I know (and need to know) is that a moderate hammer blow could disable it, and that has no impact (pun intended) on its functionality for me. It's still the best of my drivers...for me.

 

[jobo]

If you say so. All I know (and need to know) is that a moderate hammer blow could disable it, and that has no impact (pun intended) on its functionality for me. It's still the best of my drivers...for me.

abs plastic has remarkable impact resistance qualities, they make car bumpers out of it, i suspect your assessment of its resistance to impact is very much on the low,side, and let's face it as you refuse. To test it, we only have your very rough assessment to go by