The big disconnect. Or a follow up from Aikido vs MMA.

[drop bear]

No. I don't. It's simply recognizing the reality that if I shoot you from 100 yards away, you're not likely to be able to do much about it with unarmed combat skills.

No that will just show you which person is better.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Show me where i have said there is no value in adding situational defence training to MMA.

Are you saying you do add situational defence to MMA?

No, no need to attempt every permutation. I've trained with some MMA folks to get a chance to defend against MMA folks. I've trained situations, to get to stuff that doesn't happen naturally in the dojo, but which I find evidence of in videos, reports, etc. I do like when I get someone in scenario training with some previous experience and/or training, though. It gives me a chance to see if my predictions of what is and isn't going to change will be accurate. Of course, individuals vary so much that predictions have to be pretty vague.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

if its beoke it can't drive screws, of course its impact resistance is related to its function

Only if you're beating it with a hammer. I generally don't do that, so it's not so much of an issue.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No that will just show you which person is better.

DB, I see the point you're trying to make here, but when you make these oblique clever half-references, it doesn't usually get people to the point very well. And it's a valid point - that the tool (and system) matters, too.

 

[jobo]

Only if you're beating it with a hammer. I generally don't do that, so it's not so much of an issue.

but you have,dropped it!

 

[hoshin1600]

i would like to go back to this video and make a point.
in the clip there are many demonstrations of a push. the first one is at about 7:14 in. at 22:27 and onward Lenny is constantly reminding the guy to push harder.
this is partially where the aikido fallacy is. Lenny is berating the guy to push harder as if harder means that the push will be "more real". its not. this is not how a push is done typically in real life. the uke is initiating his push from about 5 ft away. a push is usually done at a much closer distance and without the momentum that the uke is adding to the push. it is this momentum that gives energy to aikido and allows it to work. a push is usually seen being done by the aggressor face to face yelling at each other , chests puffed up, then one pushes the other backwards. if you take away the few steps almost running at the Tori, there is no opportunity for the aikido to work.
this running and stepping in to attack as an uke is a behavioral patten that needs to be addressed and overcome. if you take it away most aikidoka will have problems.

 

[punisher73]

I've seen pushes happen in both manners. Chirping from a distance and the other guy moves in to push and escalate the situation and I have seen them chest to chest and someone pushes to create distances.

It is VERY important to define the "psychology of attack" (Dr. Chapel) and what the scenario is. If we change the parameters even slightly, we change the dynamics and responses as well many times.

In the situation that Lenny is giving, it is a likely scenario. Why? Because, as an aikidoka he wouldn't be standing chest to chest with someone yelling like that. Following the precepts of aikido, there would have been a response prior to that occurrence. In fact, I just saw a very similar assault happen this way very recently. Victim was trying to apologize to the Attacker and that just pissed him off more so he closed the distance to push the Victim.

 

[jobo]

i would like to go back to this video and make a point.
in the clip there are many demonstrations of a push. the first one is at about 7:14 in. at 22:27 and onward Lenny is constantly reminding the guy to push harder.
this is partially where the aikido fallacy is. Lenny is berating the guy to push harder as if harder means that the push will be "more real". its not. this is not how a push is done typically in real life. the uke is initiating his push from about 5 ft away. a push is usually done at a much closer distance and without the momentum that the uke is adding to the push. it is this momentum that gives energy to aikido and allows it to work. a push is usually seen being done by the aggressor face to face yelling at each other , chests puffed up, then one pushes the other backwards. if you take away the few steps almost running at the Tori, there is no opportunity for the aikido to work.
this running and stepping in to attack as an uke is a behavioral patten that needs to be addressed and overcome. if you take it away most aikidoka will have problems.

i don't disagree, with thats how it some times happens, nether wants a fight so they go head to head or chest to chest , till either one throws a punch or they both get bored . But to say that's how it mostly happens is taking it to far, if the aggressor has got it in his mind to punch or push as soon as he gets in range, they he WILL come with momentum as shown in the vid. Consequently the techniques will probably work.

if the aggressor just wants to bang chests with you, then as a trained fighter you shouldn't be playing that game, as you are giving up a lot of your advantage, either back away to maintain some distance or drop him as soon as he comes in range. You can use any forward momentum against him, even a purposeful walk

 

[drop bear]

DB, I see the point you're trying to make here, but when you make these oblique clever half-references, it doesn't usually get people to the point very well. And it's a valid point - that the tool (and system) matters, too.

I explained outright that the statement contradicts itself.

 

[drop bear]

i would like to go back to this video and make a point.
in the clip there are many demonstrations of a push. the first one is at about 7:14 in. at 22:27 and onward Lenny is constantly reminding the guy to push harder.
this is partially where the aikido fallacy is. Lenny is berating the guy to push harder as if harder means that the push will be "more real". its not. this is not how a push is done typically in real life. the uke is initiating his push from about 5 ft away. a push is usually done at a much closer distance and without the momentum that the uke is adding to the push. it is this momentum that gives energy to aikido and allows it to work. a push is usually seen being done by the aggressor face to face yelling at each other , chests puffed up, then one pushes the other backwards. if you take away the few steps almost running at the Tori, there is no opportunity for the aikido to work.
this running and stepping in to attack as an uke is a behavioral patten that needs to be addressed and overcome. if you take it away most aikidoka will have problems.

Also if you know what is coming it is a bit easier as well. I can pretty much get a guy to counter a flat out punch if they only have to deal with one and it is not a surprise.

And yes that is not honest training.

This is very comon in security training where you make them give you their hand then they let you get the wristlock and you practice cranking that lock untill the other guy cries.

And then you go out and for some reason barry drunk does not want to give you his hand and suddenly you realised you have basically trained the wrong thing.

this harder is more realistic is definitely a disconnect.

 

[hoshin1600]

the important part is that aikido uke have a particular way of moving. these behavior patterns will not be found outside the dojo.

at 3:35 in Stanley Pranin is talking about how to make the technique "work" but the reality of it is that everything he is talking about is irrelevant if it was a real attack. why is uke not doing anything with the grab? why is he standing there like a statue. wouldnt he be grabbing and pulling or something? this is no different then karate people who punch then freeze at the extension of there attack punch. its a dojo behavior and people tend to go down that rabbit hole chasing the specifics of the "dojo" attack and forget that this type of attack only exists in the dojo.

notice in this clip how much the uke is running around. many of the attacks take 3 running steps before contact is made.

lets compare with some actual street fights. notice the chaos in these. untrained people are fun to watch.

this one is brutal **warning**

imagine on this one if the defender didnt have a firearm.
Racial Slurs Turn Into Deadly Shooting

 

[drop bear]

the important part is that aikido uke have a particular way of moving. these behavior patterns will not be found outside the dojo.

at 3:35 in Stanley Pranin is talking about how to make the technique "work" but the reality of it is that everything he is talking about is irrelevant if it was a real attack. why is uke not doing anything with the grab? why is he standing there like a statue. wouldnt he be grabbing and pulling or something? this is no different then karate people who punch then freeze at the extension of there attack punch. its a dojo behavior and people tend to go down that rabbit hole chasing the specifics of the "dojo" attack and forget that this type of attack only exists in the dojo.

notice in this clip how much the uke is running around. many of the attacks take 3 running steps before contact is made.

lets compare with some actual street fights. notice the chaos in these. untrained people are fun to watch.

this one is brutal **warning**

imagine on this one if the defender didnt have a firearm.
Racial Slurs Turn Into Deadly Shooting

Opens up the importance of timing.

By the way. Big call to make suggesting that situational awareness would have helped stop a random guy beading you in the head with a bat.

 

[hoshin1600]

Big call to make suggesting that situational awareness would have helped stop a random guy beading you in the head with a bat.

I am not sure what you mean. I think John in the clip said there was not much she could have done, but that it's a good reminder to always stay alert.
As for myself posting it, it was to show the difference in extremes from a dojo munetsuki and a real attack which often happens from an ambush.
What is notable is the mechanics difference between the munetsuki as shown and the street fight punches. The munetsuki has its purpose as a possible knife thrust, but untrained people throwing punches come from all kinds of weird angles that are not trained for. Some may say that aikido also do shomen uchi and yokomen uchi but again these are still not representational of the same mechanics

 

[Gerry Seymour]

no any tool of quality can take being hit with a hammer, just coz you have a crappy elecy driver doesn't change that

That's true, if you define "quality" as "being able to be hit with a hammer". And that's valid if the tool's likely to be exposed to such (as they might on a construction site). There are lots of very high quality tools that don't even attempt to meet that standard (the computer I'm using would be an example). My driver rarely takes so much as a fall from a couple of feet up, and has served for many years without fail. Anything beyond that may contribute to higher quality, but not in any meaningful way. The tool performs as it is needed. That's quality for the purpose.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but you have,dropped it!

And it has survived that just fine, because that's not nearly as hard as if I hit it with a hammer. My blocks don't have to be able to stop a super-hard haymaker from some monster winding up in front of me and punching while I stand still and let them do so, because if they're winding up in front of me and I see it (so I can block it), I'd also move.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i would like to go back to this video and make a point.
in the clip there are many demonstrations of a push. the first one is at about 7:14 in. at 22:27 and onward Lenny is constantly reminding the guy to push harder.
this is partially where the aikido fallacy is. Lenny is berating the guy to push harder as if harder means that the push will be "more real". its not. this is not how a push is done typically in real life. the uke is initiating his push from about 5 ft away. a push is usually done at a much closer distance and without the momentum that the uke is adding to the push. it is this momentum that gives energy to aikido and allows it to work. a push is usually seen being done by the aggressor face to face yelling at each other , chests puffed up, then one pushes the other backwards. if you take away the few steps almost running at the Tori, there is no opportunity for the aikido to work.
this running and stepping in to attack as an uke is a behavioral patten that needs to be addressed and overcome. if you take it away most aikidoka will have problems.

Agreed. We sometimes use the "Frankenpush" for drills, to work on specific movement (because it makes timing easy), but when we practice application of technique, I get snitty if I see that Frankenpush show up. Some drunk guy might do that, but I've never found any evidence of it (no videos, and no reports from the field that have much credibility), so I consider it unlikely. A push is likely to either be 1) a distraction or taunt (very little power), 2) an attempt to move you (some power, but a compact push), or 3) an attempt to put you on your *** (lots of power, weight forward of the foot). The third one is what they should be using in this case, and it still generally starts just a small step away. If they're doing an entry version of the technique, the second push can work, as well, though the timing is tight enough that it's unlikely to be a conscious choice.

Part of the reason I started teach some boxing-style punches and movement is to improve the quality of attacks.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am not sure what you mean. I think John in the clip said there was not much she could have done, but that it's a good reminder to always stay alert.
As for myself posting it, it was to show the difference in extremes from a dojo munetsuki and a real attack which often happens from an ambush.
What is notable is the mechanics difference between the munetsuki as shown and the street fight punches. The munetsuki has its purpose as a possible knife thrust, but untrained people throwing punches come from all kinds of weird angles that are not trained for. Some may say that aikido also do shomen uchi and yokomen uchi but again these are still not representational of the same mechanics

I've had Aikido folks argue that the mechanics are very close to basic trained and untrained strikes, but I disagree. The chops put the elbow and shoulder (and, thus, the upper body) in a different position, and make different responses immediately available. Add to that the soft over-reach they usually add, and it's not very effective for training the techniques for application, IMO.

 

[jobo]

And it has survived that just fine, because that's not nearly as hard as if I hit it with a hammer. My blocks don't have to be able to stop a super-hard haymaker from some monster winding up in front of me and punching while I stand still and let them do so, because if they're winding up in front of me and I see it (so I can block it), I'd also move.

?? You said you dropped it from height! And you seem to have concluded that a hammer hit only has one, ie max power. A hammer is a precision instrument, it can deliver as much or little power as you wish or are capable of doing

 

[Gerry Seymour]

?? You said you dropped it from height! And you seem to have concluded that a hammer hit only has one, ie max power. A hammer is a precision instrument, it can deliver as much or little power as you wish or are capable of doing

From height doesn't mean from 20' in the air. It's fallen off chairs and benches, but rarely has duty any higher than that.

With the plastic on it, it wouldn't take a maximum-power hit from a hammer to crack it badly. About the force you'd use to drive a glue nail into a 2x4 would probably be sufficient, if you hit anything like the right spot. Let me choose the spot, and I can probably make it wobble with one hit that hard.

 

[jobo]

From height doesn't mean from 20' in the air. It's fallen off chairs and benches, but rarely has duty any higher than that.

With the plastic on it, it wouldn't take a maximum-power hit from a hammer to crack it badly. About the force you'd use to drive a glue nail into a 2x4 would probably be sufficient, if you hit anything like the right spot. Let me choose the spot, and I can probably make it wobble with one hit that hard.

at no point have i said you should hit a screw driver with max power