The Bible does not condemn self defense

[Dr.Smith]

How funny. OK tell ya what my next round is on your tab.

 

[Tez3]

First off, I have a mental health condition, second off I'm not all interested in validating your points for you, I think if they were valid that it would speak for its self. Never ever will I answer snarky questions, I suggest you do the same, its liberating actually. Take it as free advice and you'll see its better this way. It might even keep you out of a mental hospital.

I wouldn't shout about having a mental health condition, everyone will want one now.
What exactly does 'validating your points for you' actually mean? We are having a nice chat here, discussing various things and you think it needs 'validating'? that's psychobabble for what?
Nobody has asked anyone snarky questions, let alone asked YOU any. When people ask 'snarky' questions they don't expect a reply anyway.
I've been liberated for a very long time lol I have absolutely no idea what you think is 'better this way' and why you think we'd end up in a mental hospital after chatting about religious beliefs.

 

[Dr.Smith]

Well for whatever its worth my feelings are hurt now, and so I don't wind up in a mental health facility I think I will say good bye.

 

[oftheherd1]

You'll understand if I say no thank you politely
The trouble is that while there are prophecies, the main one wasn't fulfilled..that of when the messiah came it would be the end of the world, as it wasn't ( we are still here...I think) it's only logical to believe that he hasn't come yet, there is nothing about two comings! sharing the 'Old Testament' though isn't really sharing when things are taken wildly out of context and there are no commentaries to go with what is being read which is maybe why people think prophecies have been fulfilled when they haven't. It's good talking though, understanding others is important despite what some think!
...

I don't recall reading that in the Old Testament. Could you please tell me the verses where that is. Thanks in advance.

 

[elder999]

Well for whatever its worth my feelings are hurt now, and so I don't wind up in a mental health facility I think I will say good bye.

Mm'kay, bye-bye! Don't forget to take your little red wagon with ya!

 

[oftheherd1]

First off,I have a mental health condition, second off I'm not all interested in validating your points for you, I think if they were valid that it would speak for its self. Never ever will I answer snarky questions, I suggest you do the same, its liberating actually. Take it as free advice and you'll see its better this way. It might even keep you out of a mental hospital.

I was actually beginning to believe that. After your post #103, I'm not so sure. But since you have decided your feelings are hurt and you are leaving, I guess we'll never know. Still, I wish you well.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well for whatever its worth my feelings are hurt now, and so I don't wind up in a mental health facility I think I will say good bye.

bye bye

 

[jks9199]

I don't recall reading that in the Old Testament. Could you please tell me the verses where that is. Thanks in advance.

One thought, for what it's worth...

It's important to understand how the Jews read scripture. Tez mentioned something along the lines of "taking things out of context, without commentaries." When a Jew reads scripture, they look not only at the words of the scripture, but what various rabbis and teachers have had to say about it and what their discussions have to say about it. Rabbi Jacob Neusner and Fr. Andrew Greeley wrote at least one book, The Bible and Us: A Priest and A Rabbi Read Scripture Together where they alternate chapters reading from various parts of scripture (like The Song of Solomon). They start by talking about how they read scripture -- what process they go through to understand what scripture is saying. I hope I'm not doing too much of a disservice in my explanation here -- but Jews read through a process called midrash, where the meaning of the scripture is elucidated and illuminated by the discussion of it among those wise and learned leaders. I personally found it interesting to recognize the relationship in this process to Catholic reading of scripture, where we don't read the Bible as the literal Word of God, but as the inspired Word of God, containing within it the Truth -- kind of like the parables carried messages that made sense to the people of the day, but still carry meaning for us today. It's also interesting to contemplate how the advent of the printing press, and widespread literacy moving the reading of scripture from the hands of a small, specialized audience (the educated, and mostly religious) to the general populace, and how the understanding and interpretation of scripture shifted. In probably unfair and horrible summary, I see in the Jewish a tradition of learned individuals helping everyone understand the meaning of the scripture, crossing into Catholicism, where for many years, reading and explaining scripture was pretty much limited to the priest and other religious, and eventually into modern Protestantism -- where everyone reads scripture, largely for themselves.

 

[Tez3]

I don't recall reading that in the Old Testament. Could you please tell me the verses where that is. Thanks in advance.

I hope you don't mind some reading because a long explanation is needed and I'm not sufficiently up to that explanations I'm afraid. firstly the idea of a messiah has to be explained because it's different from what Xtians think it is, therefore what happens when he gets here has different expectations. There are also, as if you wouldn't guess, different Jewish thoughts, though they don't differ by too much actually. I suppose the thing that will surprise most people is how Jewish it is, that it's probably not what people are expecting to happen.
Why Jews Don t Believe In Jesus why Jews reject Jesus

What Is the Jewish Belief About Moshiach - Kabbalah Chassidism and Jewish Mysticism
The Messiah Jewish Virtual Library
The Messianic Age in Judaism - My Jewish Learning

Hopefully there is enough in these for you to be able to look up and read. Enjoy1

I think the main thing is to remember that whether Jesus was the messiah and is coming back or whether the messiah hasn't arrived yet we should all be working to ensure that we treat people as we would wish to be treated so that whatever happens, even nothing, we can at least have played out part in being kind and doing our best to make the world a better place.

 

[oftheherd1]

I hope you don't mind some reading because a long explanation is needed and I'm not sufficiently up to that explanations I'm afraid. firstly the idea of a messiah has to be explained because it's different from what Xtians think it is, therefore what happens when he gets here has different expectations. There are also, as if you wouldn't guess, different Jewish thoughts, though they don't differ by too much actually. I suppose the thing that will surprise most people is how Jewish it is, that it's probably not what people are expecting to happen.
Why Jews Don t Believe In Jesus why Jews reject Jesus

What Is the Jewish Belief About Moshiach - Kabbalah Chassidism and Jewish Mysticism
The Messiah Jewish Virtual Library
The Messianic Age in Judaism - My Jewish Learning

Hopefully there is enough in these for you to be able to look up and read. Enjoy1

I think the main thing is to remember that whether Jesus was the messiah and is coming back or whether the messiah hasn't arrived yet we should all be working to ensure that we treat people as we would wish to be treated so that whatever happens, even nothing, we can at least have played out part in being kind and doing our best to make the world a better place.

Thanks Tez3. I will have to take a bit of time to read and digest the information in the links. Then if it seems appropriate, I will get back to you and comment. I am looking forward to reading them.

 

[Tez3]

Thanks Tez3. I will have to take a bit of time to read and digest the information in the links. Then if it seems appropriate, I will get back to you and comment. I am looking forward to reading them.

No worries, it all gets quite complicated at times which is why I felt I couldn't answer you myself, despite my age I still have a lot to understand, I feel sometimes that Judaism is the simplest and at the same time the most complicated thing.
I enjoy our discussions I hope nothing that 'Dr. Smith' has said has upset you, you have your faith and you don't need anyone ranting at you, we can disagree (as well as agree ) on lots of things but the important thing is that it's done amicably.

 

[oftheherd1]

No worries, it all gets quite complicated at times which is why I felt I couldn't answer you myself, despite my age I still have a lot to understand, I feel sometimes that Judaism is the simplest and at the same time the most complicated thing.
I enjoy our discussions I hope nothing that 'Dr. Smith' has said has upset you, you have your faith and you don't need anyone ranting at you, we can disagree (as well as agree ) on lots of things but the important thing is that it's done amicably.

I will get back to you as soon as I can. Unfortunately work is actually making me work. What's up with that. ;-)

As to Dr. Smith, he has not and probably could not, upset me. My skin is a little thicker that that. Actually, I have some sympathy for him.

 

[Tez3]

Unfortunately work is actually making me work

I hate to tell you how much I'm enjoying retirement!

 

[oftheherd1]

I hope you don't mind some reading because a long explanation is needed and I'm not sufficiently up to that explanations I'm afraid. firstly the idea of a messiah has to be explained because it's different from what Xtians think it is, therefore what happens when he gets here has different expectations. There are also, as if you wouldn't guess, different Jewish thoughts, though they don't differ by too much actually. I suppose the thing that will surprise most people is how Jewish it is, that it's probably not what people are expecting to happen.
Why Jews Don t Believe In Jesus why Jews reject Jesus

What Is the Jewish Belief About Moshiach - Kabbalah Chassidism and Jewish Mysticism
The Messiah Jewish Virtual Library
The Messianic Age in Judaism - My Jewish Learning

Hopefully there is enough in these for you to be able to look up and read. Enjoy1

I think the main thing is to remember that whether Jesus was the messiah and is coming back or whether the messiah hasn't arrived yet we should all be working to ensure that we treat people as we would wish to be treated so that whatever happens, even nothing, we can at least have played out part in being kind and doing our best to make the world a better place.

Just wanted you to know I haven't forgotten. That is a lot of information, some 15 pages of small type. I am enjoying reading it all though. Then of course I want to be able to comment with things I have learned or believe so you might know my beliefs on religion. So, please bear with me. I understand you won't agree with all my beliefs, but since you are so gracious to share your beliefs, I feel compelled to do the same.

 

[Tez3]

Just wanted you to know I haven't forgotten. That is a lot of information, some 15 pages of small type. I am enjoying reading it all though. Then of course I want to be able to comment with things I have learned or believe so you might know my beliefs on religion. So, please bear with me. I understand you won't agree with all my beliefs, but since you are so gracious to share your beliefs, I feel compelled to do the same.

No problem, there's times when I find it hard to understand a lot of it especially the Kabbalistic things, they aren't something I know very much about. I think many people think Jews are the same as Xtians but without the Jesus bit but that's far from the truth, we have many different thoughts and ideas among us let along from those who aren't Jewish. I tend now to just stay within what I believe because to explore too far into the world of Jewish mysticism can leave you very mind fogged. Mysticism and over piety aren't encouraged as a rule, we like to be as practical as possible but history of persecution has left some Jewish groups very inward and isolated from the mainstream, often they are called extremist but really they have retreated into their religion and way of life not wanting to join the world now.

 

[oftheherd1]

It was a sincere question. I'm always interested in how people decide on their beliefs, whether or not I agree with them.

Some follow-up questions:

When you say Fundamental Baptists, are you referring to a specific organization, such as the FBFI or are you saying that KJVOnly-ism is universal among IFB congregations in general?

Am I correct in interpreting your answer to mean that you based your decision to believe in the KJV as the one true English-language Bible based on reading books such as the ones you cite? If so, have you also read books arguing for other translations and/or books arguing that there is no one true perfect translation?

Sorry, I almost missed this. If I understand your meaning, no I am not referring to the FBFI. Frankly I didn't even know about them. I have just been reading their site. I noticed some things I can agree with. The fundamental Baptist churches I am referring to are indeed independent as they talk about. Surprisingly however, I found no mention of the KJV. They refer to the Bible, but never define a correct Bible (since there are indeed many versions which don't agree with each other). Fundamental Baptists I m familiar with don't spend all their time telling everybody the KJV is the only true Bible, but when people talk about the Bible, and made statements not consistent with the KJV, we point it out to them. We also, from time to time amongst ourselves, reinforce our belief in the KJV.

I have heard of some fundamental Baptist clergy that wish to question the KJV as the correct Bible. From my point of view, if they adopt another Bible in English, they can no longer all themselves fundamentalists.

I have read things that advocate for other translations. I don't agree with them. Have you read any of the books I mentioned? You don't have to wait for them to arrive, or wonder if you think it is worth spending money on, since in the case of Gipp's book. You can read it online. It is a long read, but sets things up well. But you might want to skip to the section where he compares different versions. See what you think. I am interested in what you would think of that.

 

[oftheherd1]

No problem, there's times when I find it hard to understand a lot of it especially the Kabbalistic things, they aren't something I know very much about. I think many people think Jews are the same as Xtians but without the Jesus bit but that's far from the truth, we have many different thoughts and ideas among us let along from those who aren't Jewish. I tend now to just stay within what I believe because to explore too far into the world of Jewish mysticism can leave you very mind fogged. Mysticism and over piety aren't encouraged as a rule, we like to be as practical as possible but history of persecution has left some Jewish groups very inward and isolated from the mainstream, often they are called extremist but really they have retreated into their religion and way of life not wanting to join the world now.

I am beginning to understand some of that from the reading you provided. Again, thanks for those insights.

 

[Gnarlie]

When somebody has made it clear they've chosen not to believe in something, in this case the Bible, or they've decided to take a certain position on something and they keep giving me the same answer over and over again I don't see what I can learn from that.

I never chose not to believe. I never decided to take a position. I was born in a position. I, like everybody, was born without religion or belief. I have never been presented with evidence that would make me choose to believe. Belief is the choice, non-religion and non-belief is the default state into which we are born.

You can only choose to believe stories once you have heard them. You are not born knowing them. You make a choice to believe.

 

[Tez3]

I never chose not to believe. I never decided to take a position. I was born in a position. I, like everybody, was born without religion or belief. I have never been presented with evidence that would make me choose to believe. Belief is the choice, non-religion and non-belief is the default state into which we are born.

You can only choose to believe stories once you have heard them. You are not born knowing them. You make a choice to believe.

I like your answer to PG's post but I can't really understand what he means because there's always something to be learned and I don't see how ignoring someone because they believe differently from you helps anyone. I haven't seen anyone repeating themselves either. I've seen a few different points of views, some different beliefs and some with no religious beliefs, all interesting and in some places very funny.

 

[Blindside]

The Bible does not condemn self defense. Those passages about turning the other cheek, that's if somebody slaps you. Specifically if somebody smites your right cheek, give them your left. However, if somebody tries something else such as if they try to punch you or mug, rape, murder you there is nothing in the Bible that says you can't use any and every means to put them down.

Hey PG, still waiting to see what you think the Bible says about self defense and the scriptural quotes about it. Thanks.