Technique Discussion: Dropping The Storm & 5 Swords

[MJS]

Dropping the storm, is an IKCA tech. 5 Swords is obviously Parker Kenpo. Both are off of a right roundhouse punch. There has been discussion on the practicality or effectiveness of DTS. Ras, known on the forums as atacxgym, was kind enough to post a clip of himself doing DTS. I watched it today (nice clip Ras ) and felt that it was very similar to 5S. That being said, lets begin the discussion.

Here is the written breakdown of DTS:

Dropping[FONT=&quot] the Storm[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Inside defense against a Right Hook Punch[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Step back into Right neutral bow with a double block to the arm (one hand hitting the bicep and the other hand hitting between the wrist and the elbow[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The right hand loops back into a back fist strike (si[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The right hand grabs the garment near the collar and the left hand grabs the arm or garment near the wrist as you step in and kick the legs out from under the attacker, dropping the right elbow into the attacker’s solar plexus[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]4. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The left hand keeps a hold on the wrist while the other hand slides up the arm for control.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]5. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Pulling up with both hands on the arm, drop ricochet kick to the ribs on the way through.[/FONT]


Here is the video of DTS, courtesy of Ras.

[yt]tFbBmkR5hM8&feature=feedu[/yt]

Here is the video of 5S, courtesy of Casa De Kenpo.

[yt]hjlChmMnVJs[/yt]

Ras commented that it would be better to do the block to the punch, while at the same time, striking the face, to cancel out a potential counter from the other person, ie: a left hook, a knee, a takedown, etc. 5S basically does the same thing, 2 blocks to the arm, then continues with a sword to the next, and so on. So, isn't there a risk of something similar happening, as Ras describes, when you do 5S?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Dropping the storm, is an IKCA tech. 5 Swords is obviously Parker Kenpo. Both are off of a right roundhouse punch. There has been discussion on the practicality or effectiveness of DTS. Ras, known on the forums as atacxgym, was kind enough to post a clip of himself doing DTS. I watched it today (nice clip Ras ) and felt that it was very similar to 5S. That being said, lets begin the discussion.

Here is the written breakdown of DTS:

Dropping[FONT=&quot] the Storm[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Inside defense against a Right Hook Punch[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Step back into Right neutral bow with a double block to the arm (one hand hitting the bicep and the other hand hitting between the wrist and the elbow[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The right hand loops back into a back fist strike (si[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The right hand grabs the garment near the collar and the left hand grabs the arm or garment near the wrist as you step in and kick the legs out from under the attacker, dropping the right elbow into the attacker’s solar plexus[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]4. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The left hand keeps a hold on the wrist while the other hand slides up the arm for control.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]5. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Pulling up with both hands on the arm, drop ricochet kick to the ribs on the way through.[/FONT]


Here is the video of DTS, courtesy of Ras.

[yt]tFbBmkR5hM8&feature=feedu[/yt]

Here is the video of 5S, courtesy of Casa De Kenpo.

[yt]hjlChmMnVJs[/yt]

Ras commented that it would be better to do the block to the punch, while at the same time, striking the face, to cancel out a potential counter from the other person, ie: a left hook, a knee, a takedown, etc. 5S basically does the same thing, 2 blocks to the arm, then continues with a sword to the next, and so on. So, isn't there a risk of something similar happening, as Ras describes, when you do 5S?

I take issue with that first way too; however, maybe it was not done the way it was supposed to be.
Sean

 

[jks9199]

It looks to me like the Dropping the Storm version is a modification of the 5 Swords, developed by someone with an incomplete understanding of it.

In 5 Swords, as shown, the defender is stepping IN and the double "block" actually includes a very clear and powerful unbalancing strike to the shoulder. The timing would likely preclude a lot of follow up attacks, if the attacker is truly unbalanced.

It's also important to realize that the strike to the face in both following the double block could be redirected to deflect and strike an incoming punch. Positioning weakens or negates knee attacks.

Personally -- were I to use a similar defensive pattern, it'd might go something like this:
As the attacker delivers the right roundhouse punch, step in to their center, delivering a hammer/cross-body block simultaneously blocking the punch and striking the attacker's face/neck along the jaw line with my right hand. I'd carry the right hand across then, reversing it to a elbow or back fist (depending on range), which would become a wrap and pull the attacker into a left rising or driving knee strike, then step back, pulling them down into the ground.

 

[yorkshirelad]

I stopped doing the double inward block years ago on 5 swords for the reason given by atacxgym. It leaves you way to exposed and opens the door to the opponant borrowing the force of the block to initiate a left hook, or the left hook could even be an unintentional move by the opponant.

I use a left cover block, with my fingers locked firmly behind my head and my forearm tight against my temple as I step forward with my right into a right forward bow with my heal off the ground, while I simultaneously I use a right upward elbow to my opponants jaw (or nose if he correctly attacks with his chin down). From this position, I plant into my neutral bow, slamming my left heel down using gravitational marriage as I simultaneously perform a right downward handsword to my opponant's right bicep. I then continue with the technique, using the rebound of the right handsword to propel the right handsword into the right side of the opponant's neck/jaw.

When Atacxgym explains that DTS is finished with Osoto-gari I was left shaking my head. With the force of the Uke's hook coming forward on a circular angle, i would think Soto maki komi would be more beneficial as a finish. If you start the technique the same way I start 5 swords then the right upward elbow should force the opponant's head back in the ideal phase, which would then open up Osotogari as a viable finish.

 

[Blindside]

If I can get the centerline on a guy, I am not going to be giving it up to spend time blocking the attacking arm with my lead arm. Step in with the right, use the left forearm to jam the attacking arm at the bicep, right forearm is slamming into the neck/throat area to check their forward momentum. This takes you off the "one-two" beat pattern and inside the arc of the potential left.

 

[marlon]

The techniques are very interesting. Hopefully, no one will mind the input of an SKK person. In the first technique the pathof the right are can make all the difference. instead of a semi linear shot to the shoulder or bicep a more circular attack to the same target but that first directs itself towards the head will check forward momentum of the body and certainly cause the attacker to become a little more defensive minded. as for the throw a counter clockwise spin with a slight adjustment of the position of the right leg would flow better for that particular throw..Just in a different direction

5 swords the same comment can be applied for the block, however 5 swords has a natural response in that the sword attack after striking the bicep from point of origin naturally can protect against a counter strike and without distrupting flow the follow strike get the job done

Both techniques, however with sufficient depth of entry can easily preclude a counter strike especially with the leg check that was mentioned in the 5 swords vid

all in my humble opinion and with the awareness of my limited knowledge of AK

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[MJS]

I take issue with that first way too; however, maybe it was not done the way it was supposed to be.
Sean

Good point, and I think we say that, because of the crapfest thats going on at KT. But, be that as it may, I still think that its making for an interesting discussion. OTOH, reading the tech breakdown of DTS, and this is coming from someone (me) who does not train in that system, I'm curious as to a) why step back vs. stepping up and b) does an adjustment step need to be used, to compensate for stepping back?

 

[MJS]

It looks to me like the Dropping the Storm version is a modification of the 5 Swords, developed by someone with an incomplete understanding of it.

I dont know how much time Vic and Chuck spent with Parker. That being said, I dont know how well they know 5S.

In 5 Swords, as shown, the defender is stepping IN and the double "block" actually includes a very clear and powerful unbalancing strike to the shoulder. The timing would likely preclude a lot of follow up attacks, if the attacker is truly unbalanced.

It's also important to realize that the strike to the face in both following the double block could be redirected to deflect and strike an incoming punch. Positioning weakens or negates knee attacks.

Personally -- were I to use a similar defensive pattern, it'd might go something like this:
As the attacker delivers the right roundhouse punch, step in to their center, delivering a hammer/cross-body block simultaneously blocking the punch and striking the attacker's face/neck along the jaw line with my right hand. I'd carry the right hand across then, reversing it to a elbow or back fist (depending on range), which would become a wrap and pull the attacker into a left rising or driving knee strike, then step back, pulling them down into the ground.

IMHO, it seems to me, that the initial blocks in 5S are designed for just what you said...to be powerful and unbalancing. Hopefully if the arm is blasted hard enough, it'll nullify any other actions from the attacker. Ras is saying that the other attack could still come or be too quick. I think that the idea of 5S is to be quick enough with the follow up shots, to hopefully cancel out anything else.

 

[MJS]

I stopped doing the double inward block years ago on 5 swords for the reason given by atacxgym. It leaves you way to exposed and opens the door to the opponant borrowing the force of the block to initiate a left hook, or the left hook could even be an unintentional move by the opponant.

Good point. As I said to JKS, it seems to me that the idea is to hit hard enough to destroy or deaden the rt. arm, and hit with the handsword. This is the assumption. Of course, this may not always work as planned, as Ras said.

I use a left cover block, with my fingers locked firmly behind my head and my forearm tight against my temple as I step forward with my right into a right forward bow with my heal off the ground, while I simultaneously I use a right upward elbow to my opponants jaw (or nose if he correctly attacks with his chin down). From this position, I plant into my neutral bow, slamming my left heel down using gravitational marriage as I simultaneously perform a right downward handsword to my opponant's right bicep. I then continue with the technique, using the rebound of the right handsword to propel the right handsword into the right side of the opponant's neck/jaw.

I like that.

When Atacxgym explains that DTS is finished with Osoto-gari I was left shaking my head. With the force of the Uke's hook coming forward on a circular angle, i would think Soto maki komi would be more beneficial as a finish. If you start the technique the same way I start 5 swords then the right upward elbow should force the opponant's head back in the ideal phase, which would then open up Osotogari as a viable finish.

I'm not a huge fan of throws, for the simple fact that if they're not done right or quick enough, you could end up putting yourself in a worse position than you started in. I'd rather opt for sweeping the leg, if possible.

 

[MJS]

If I can get the centerline on a guy, I am not going to be giving it up to spend time blocking the attacking arm with my lead arm. Step in with the right, use the left forearm to jam the attacking arm at the bicep, right forearm is slamming into the neck/throat area to check their forward momentum. This takes you off the "one-two" beat pattern and inside the arc of the potential left.

I like that!!!

 

[MJS]

While this is a Kaju club defense, I thought I'd post this, because while its a club defense, its still a roundhouse attack. Also, some have mentioned striking 2 different areas at the same time. We see this in this tech. Left blocks, right hits the collar bone.

 

[MJS]

The techniques are very interesting. Hopefully, no one will mind the input of an SKK person. In the first technique the pathof the right are can make all the difference. instead of a semi linear shot to the shoulder or bicep a more circular attack to the same target but that first directs itself towards the head will check forward momentum of the body and certainly cause the attacker to become a little more defensive minded. as for the throw a counter clockwise spin with a slight adjustment of the position of the right leg would flow better for that particular throw..Just in a different direction

5 swords the same comment can be applied for the block, however 5 swords has a natural response in that the sword attack after striking the bicep from point of origin naturally can protect against a counter strike and without distrupting flow the follow strike get the job done

Nice.

all in my humble opinion and with the awareness of my limited knowledge of AK

Respectfully,
marlon

Your comments are always welcome.

 

[marlon]

Nice.




Your comments are always welcome.

You are kind sir.Thank you

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

While this is a Kaju club defense, I thought I'd post this, because while its a club defense, its still a roundhouse attack. Also, some have mentioned striking 2 different areas at the same time. We see this in this tech. Left blocks, right hits the collar bone.

nice however i note that the right 'block' strikes the arm that could coounter attack. so both limbs are checked and the force of the enttry move precludes a counter with the legs

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[MJS]

nice however i note that the right 'block' strikes the arm that could coounter attack. so both limbs are checked and the force of the enttry move precludes a counter with the legs

Respectfully,
Marlon

Good point. I'll have to play with this a bit, but I'm wondering how well this would work using 5 Swords as the model.

 

[Blindside]

I like that!!!

I use it in this vid at about 0:42 and 2:05, the attack was supposed to be a roundhouse club, but we didn't have much time to practice.

And the falling on my butt trying to kick him wasn't in the plan either.

 

[punisher73]

It looks to me like the Dropping the Storm version is a modification of the 5 Swords, developed by someone with an incomplete understanding of it.

GM Chuck Sullivan (along with Vic LeRoux) is who came up with this technique. He was among Parker's first BB's from the old days. He has currently practiced kenpo for over 50 years. I don't think it's a question of an incomplete understanding.

Also, when I watched this technque on the video when GM Sullivan first does it, he doesn't step back with it. He does the double block just as in 5 Swords.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Hello all,I'm Ras...the guy who unintentionally kicked up that lovefest over there on KT.I have zero experience with IKCA; however I too hold a black belt in woyingchuan,which was the name of the BKF's martial art back in the 90's when I trained with Master Amen Rah and Charles at the 109 School of Discipline.I had my black belt already,and Master Amen Rah merely confirmed my position,but I'm not stuck on rank; I like knowledge.I wore all kinds of color belts at the 109 School of Discipline and I brought Judo and GJJ to the 109 School.This is in 92-93 just before the beginning of what would be the grappling craze ushered in by the Gracies.At the time,nobody in the BKF had an extensive ground grappling game to my knowledge.

Why is that important? Because I met GM Vic of the IKCA (looong before he was a GM) a few times years ago and spoke to him last week.I remember him from Sijo's L.A. school.He was the only White guy there.Vic and GM Sullivan--who also was a teacher to Sijo Muhammed aka GM Steve Muhammad of the BKF--formulated this technique,Dropping The Storm.The names garlanding DTS the technique is quite impressive; maybe even a little intimidating.

However,the DTS method as written is squarely within the parameters of the "Ideal Phase" in Kenpo,and has significant problems as a result.Not in concept per se,but in its training models.There is a prevalent approach in Kenpo in general to Graft from technique to technique depending upon the exigencies of the scenario; the problem is each technique is primarily practiced in the "Ideal Phase" and the "Ideal Phase" is severely limited in functionality.So basically too many kenpoists would Graft from one technique that will likely get your butt kicked or worse to another technique which ALSO is likely to get your butt kicked or worse;and when they get their butt kicked or worse? They conclude that Kenpo doesn't work.Off they got to MMA.The one thing about MMA? Those guys can do what they say they can do.Why? Because almost everything they do is based upon functionality in the cage.We SD folks need to focus on functionality on the streets above all else.Which means looootsssssa sparring. So I proposed the not-so-novel idea that we spar with each of the 72 self-defense sequences in each of the scenarios that predominate self-defense: standup,clinch,up-seaed (one party is seated,the other standing),seated-seated,up-down (one party is standing the other is on the ground),ground-ground,multifights,armed,armed multifights,surprise attacks from 360 degree Circle of Protection,escape all of the above,rescue (innocent/loved one/property whatever in danger) from all of the above,rescue and escape (with innocent/loved one/property/whatever) from all of the above...and the result will be a single technique that can and will function under all primary stimuli that civilian self-defense calls for.This would also result in dramatically reengineering all 72 technique sequences,but the results would yield maximal functionality.We could then share our techniques with each other,brainstorm them and find ways to do them better.Look at the basis of a technique,analyze,practice,spar,share,brainstorm with other martial artists (not all Kenpo heads only),repeat...and just like that we have a perpetually growing perpetually functional kenpo expression that is still tailored to literally each one of our own personal tastes.IT'S THIS RESULTING MODEL THAT I ENERGETICALLY RECOMMENDED TO BECOME THE IDEAL PHASE AND I STRENUOUSLY RECOMMENDED THIS TRAINING METHOD--basically the sparring lab in these scenarios--AS THE LITMUS TEST FOR THE VIABILITY OF ANY TECHNIQUE.Almost certainly,this approach was not used on DTS during its formulation and application stages.

Didn't Ed Parker say something like that? (Yes,that's a rhetorical question).Yet you might have thought that I'd blasphemed the Gods,from the responses I got from many quarters.Lol.

Anyway,the responses merely reenforced my belief in functionality.Which leads me to this post here in this thread.My video on DTS is only the 3rd of 5 videos that I'm putting out there; the first 2 videos cover hitting every area of the upper arm and the specific position that the attacker has to be in for the DTS to work as it's written in the "Ideal Phase",plus a whole host of responses that I have to those circumstances.I seek to apply modifications of DTS to every scenario: what if I weave like Frazier under the omg haymaker roundhouse punch/weapon/kick/whatever of doom that is coming at my head? What if it's coming at my body? What if he's mounted? What if we're fighting in a stairway? What if we're scrappin between parking stalls in a parking lot? See,most guys who throw the omg roundhouse haymker of doom have reason to believe that they'll hit you.YOU'RE CLOSE TO THEM ALREADY.You're closer still if they're taller than you and thus you're almost 100% certain to be hit by SOMETHING even in the "Ideal Phase".And the more skilled they are? The more dangerous the attack is.It's faster,sharper,comes in combinations,oftentimes by surprise...in other words? It's anything BUT ideal 95% of the time.And in other words? Only rigorous sparring can resolve this matter short of testing it out on the street or the local freakin FIGHT CLUB.Lol.

You CAN stop the attack exactly as scripted in the 5% and less of the time you're "fed" the "Ideal Phase" attack (usually by some guy you'd massacre without the specific need for the aid that DTS imparts,as DTS is a black belt IKCA technique and you can dispose of some yahoo who sucks and throws that punch with pretty much any Yellow Belt self-defense technique) if you are relatively the physical equal of your opponent.You will encounter significantly more difficulties for the most part if you're shorter,weaker,caught by surprise,outnumbered,tackled,or any combination thereof.So I say dispose of the nonfunctional "Ideal Phase" and use the Upgraded Kenpo model which is all functionality in all primary scenarios,because the Ugraded model covers the Ideal Phase too whereas the converse is most emphatically not the case.

There ya are.Sorry for the supa lengthy post.

With respect,

THE ATACX GYM

 

[MJS]

Ras,

Cant really add much more to what you've already said. IMO, I think its very important to really understand what people are doing with the techs. This is one of the main reasons why I would like to see the number of techs cut down. IMO, I dont feel that you need 100+, extensions, to a) learn to defend yourself and b) to get all of the concepts, principles and ideas.

I'd rather take a tech, say Attacking Mace, and drill the hell out of it, in a number of ways. For example...alot of the techs are taught as a step thru punch. Ok fine, train the tech that way. Then, train it against a cross, learn to adjust your strikes to different areas, depending on how the person attacks, learn to use parts of the tech to create a 'new' tech, learn to defend against other attacks the guy may throw. I recall one training session, my teacher and I were working headlock defenses. I'd do the tech and gradually he'd start throwing other things into the mix. He'd start to move, which would force me to compensate. He'd throw punches with his other hand, which again, forced me to adapt and break away from the standard tech. The list can go on and on. I've done this with my students and its good to see them thinking outside of the box.

I only know DTS from what I've read and saw, with your clip. But yeah, ya gotta take it up a notch, past the ideal phase. Are those guys doing that? No idea, but hopefully they are.

 

[ATACX GYM]

I'm putting up more videos on my Channel guys,including the rest of the DTS technique.I include unscripted responses and sparring,and I show why the modifications that I have made WILL WORK under pressure.I didn't show the weapons variant because it was taking too long to load on Youtube,so I went with the shorter videos.Should be up today and tomorrow.I also showed how to use my variant of ATTACKING MACE while grappling.I did it this morning against a friend and talented purple belt in bjj,and now I demo'd what I did against my cousin Kent who's a talented kenpoist and wrestler.He's base is much more oriented toward kenpo,boxing,Korean kendo,and kali with some wrestling.