Te ashi waza ?????

[Autocrat]

Hi folks.... I don't practice aikido, yet at my Karate club, we seem to have "borrowed" a kata or form of movements that strike me as originating from your style.... we call it te ashi waza.

I cannot, anywhere, locate details about this form, so I was hoping some of you may be able to help out.

Details :
The form starts of facing North, you place one leg and corresponding arm out fron, and you proced to step forward, step back, step back, step forward, step to the left, step to the right, step to the right, step to the left, then you step forward/left diagonal and tur outwards, then step back/right diagonal and face north again, then step forward/right diagonal and face out, then step back/left diagonal and face north, then step back/left diagonal etc......


so basically you step in 8 directions, always returning to the central position... at some point, you switch between leading / rear limbs, so you lead with the other side....

Does it ring any bells? Can anyone give me a name for it?

Hope so....

Autocrat

 

[Ken H]

Autocrat,

Sounds like you're practicing tenkan stepping, an exercise in body movements commonly used in avoidance of attacks. Not quite sure what the 'te' or hand extension part is all about, but I'm really only a layman aikidoka at best.

What style of karate do you study?

-Ken

 

[Autocrat]

Hi, and thank you for the reply.

The current style is Okinawan GoJu Ryu based, with the Okinawan Te techniques included, yet they/we add other stuff alongside it, we include some judo techniqes, stuff from aikido, jiu jitsu,Shotokan etc., basically any holes in our base system are filled in with bits from others, (i.e. Most Karate's lack ground fighting techniqes, thus the Judo etc.)

So you think it is tenkan? Stepping excercise? The evasion sounds about right, the hands are for pushing, grappling, deflecting or striking, depending on the application and whats coming at you.... but the kata just has them in the general hi-mid guard positions.

Care to let me know about tenkan abit, if possible?

 

[Paul B]

Hi Guys,

I would guess you're just learning to move while in kamae.Tenkan would involve pivoting,and it doesn't sound like you're pivoting when you step,no? Are you just staying in "stance"...step forward,then back.change directions...step forward then back?

There is a Aikido name for this particular exercise...Happo Undo or eight direction exercise.

 

[Autocrat]

Okay, thats two points of reference;
tenkan stepping
Happo Undo

tenkan appears to mean stepping - particularly pertaining to stepping and turning around attacks or entering the opponents field

Happo Undo seems to be the 8 directional motion, yet no where mentions stepping back, only to the N, S, E,W, the NE, NW, SE, SW, (then again, I suppose if you don't return to origin, you'll be all over the place!).

OK... thats two useful bits, any other takers or names for this sort of thing... the more the better (though tenkan and happo undo seem to have hit the mark! - Thanks you two)

 

[Autocrat]

NOT GETTING anyWHERE WITH THIS!

I've looked up both Happo Unjo and Tenkan.... neither quite fits!

So I've broken it down into moves and posted it here....
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21114
PLEASE have a look and see if you can ID the thing.... really bugging me that I cannot find it!

 

[JAMJTX]

Te Ashi Waza is probably either your teachers name for the exercise, or the name that the person he learned it from used. Te = hand, Ashi = foot, Waza = technique - but you likely know this. This name is probably used because of the cooridination between the hands and feet.

Try looking in a book on Yoshinkan Aikido and see if the Kamae looks familiar.

I think all Aikido styles practice some variation of the exercise you describe.

Jim Mc Coy

 

[Autocrat]

righty oh!
Off to rain Senseis book shelves!
(then again... if he had it in a book... why would he ask me to locate the origin? Still, never know... even Sensei is n't perfect.... No, I didn't mean it that way! LOL

Oh well, here goes....

 

[JAMJTX]

He may not have a book, and may not have learned it from a book.
I just suggested looking in a Yoshinkan book to see if it looks familiar or similar.
You can just go to borders and look at one of Shioda Sensei's books - either Master Course or Dynamic Aikido

Jim Mc Coy

 

[Paul B]

Happo Undo is on pages 128-129 in Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere. I don't recall seeing an illustration of it anywhere else,but it couldn't hurt to look.

 

[tongsau]

Most Karate's lack ground fighting techniqes, thus the Judo etc.

While that may be true from a beginners standpoint. Most forms have ground fighting concepts in the stand up forms.
I know a 5th Dan Shotokan black belt who never trained with anyone but Oshima and he is a pretty good grappler. Just not guard, mount method/more advanced.

 

[JAMJTX]

Hi, and thank you for the reply.

The current style is Okinawan GoJu Ryu based, with the Okinawan Te techniques included, yet they/we add other stuff alongside it, we include some judo techniqes, stuff from aikido, jiu jitsu,Shotokan etc., basically any holes in our base system are filled in with bits from others, (i.e. Most Karate's lack ground fighting techniqes, thus the Judo etc.)

I meant to address this part earlier:

First there is a lot of grappling, including ground fighting in Okinawan Goju Ryu.
If you look at Morio Higaonna's video series from Dragon Tsunami, you will see a good bit of the grappling. I also learned ground fighting as part of regualr Goju Ryu training, from an Okinawan teacher who only ever trained in Goju Ryu - so it wsn't something he added.

Also, I had an Aikido teacher who taught Goju Ryu at another school. He always said that every technique in Aikido is in Goju Ryu. They are just different approaches to learning and training. After being in Aikido for 4 years, I have not learned a technique that is not in Goju. You'll find it all, kote gaeshi, shiho nage, ikkajo, nikkajo, sankajo, yonkajo, kokyunage, etc.

Jim Mc Coy

 

[Autocrat]

OK... my bad....
There may be ground fighting.... just haven't been taught/shown yet?
Just a gross generalisation about most karate lacking what is the base for some other styles... (I guess we primarliy do standing attacks & defence... learn grappling techniques second..... so I suppose we could apply most of it on the fllor - such as naihanchi?.... where as some styles have different orders - kali teach empty hands last, weapons first? Or some such!).

But thank you for correcting me....... *blush*

Sensei doesn't have either of those books... guess I'll have to visit a library or some such and look there! (Or irritate some bookshop owners and browse! LOL)

 

[JAMJTX]

Autocrat - where are you located?
Perhaps your Sensei will be open to a seminar to learn more about this footwork.
I definitely sounds like it came from Aikido. Do you practice ippon kumite using this idea or just practicing this pattern?
Perhaps your sensei would be interested in learning more and incorporating it into the school.

In mean time, just get on over to Borders, they don't mind you sitting down to read the books. Just take it to the cafe and enjoy a mocha or something.

 

[Autocrat]

We do practice the kata alone, (in various stances, and sometimes with leg/arm strikes, or weapons), and we also practice it with ippon and set sparring techniques.

Always interested in enhancing what we know, (or what we don't! LOL), it's an ideal base for locking and throwing techniques.

As for the groundwork... we do practice ground techniques... but are visiting other clubs/styles to get a better understand/grip on it! (we do utilise it at the club, but only in progressive sparring... not a major factor unmtil higher in the system.).

Just never enough time to cover everything.... so much to do, so many people to hit *grin*.... just don't get the chance!

I'm based in southern england... guessing you're in the states somewhere?

 

[JAMJTX]

I am in the U.S.
I just assumed you were too.

 

[Autocrat]

Why?

 

[tongsau]

Most schools of Karate might not have the full understanding of the forms they teach. Since most of the grappleing was lost to time. Positions are mostly universal. When you find the right position you will see multiple uses that may contain a throw or grab/pin.
For example: Lets say you have a outside block and short punch. That short punch could be a grab of the gi and throw. Most people over emphasis distance for show rather than position. Try going through a kata really slow and stop in a postition and find the grappling position that it compliments/mirrors.

 

[Autocrat]

I've already started on this approach.... one of my sensei now takes me jiu jitsu.... and we can't believe the number of techniques that we can allocate to kata!
Even last night, showing a lad how to do a simple - lazy low arm sweep to blck a straight kick... I got him to stepin to the first part of seiyunchin.. (step forawrd into horse stance, elbows out, hands pointing in and up - like a roof!).... sod blocked my kick, slid in behind me, elbowed me backwards whilst hiw knee took my weight! I was stuck - bent over backwards with no real balance... then he moved and I dropped like a stone!
LOL

It is a real eye opener!
I've never been a believer in the "secret / hidden" techniques... I think that is either hype or a translation error... I think it is more as you pointed out, it's to do with lack of knowledge and loss of knowledge!

 

[tongsau]

I am constantly amazed when teaching a form how easily I can see and relate to postitions better than the "technique". Technique already has some implied emphasis. It was a real eye opener when the senior teacher was explaining a form I knew for while. You will see this angle repeated most prominently if you pay attention. (135degree) He said to pay careful attention to the first things you learned. Kneeling, bowing, salutation movements etc. He said our system can be defined by the first punch we teach. I was thinking "What art was he teaching". Then he said, "here...this was the first punch you learned." I thought, no I didn't really learn that punch (he did a short 2" punch from his chest). He said, "you practice it everyday in class at least 2 times." I then realized it was in our opening formal bow to open and end a class.
No not everyone is bless to have such an advanced art, or rather, unlost treasures (Toranoko). But I have no doubt that if you seek for them you will find them in any art that teaches fighting. I was taking a Tai chi class and saw all the shared moves. Like the Fibonacci/Golden section/Divine Ratio It all comes down to how deep you look at something until you find the truth (or lie) in it.