Taser vs. Pepper spray

[BLACK LION]

There is no one stop shop here.
A taser or stun gun does not work all the time and neither does oc propellant or pepper spray.
I know a 1 million volt stun gun is a major deterrent simply for the audible and visual effect it has.
Oc or pepper spray may work as well but there is a risk of just making the situation worse or affecting yourself or others whom the spray is not intended for.

I look at them as "use in conjuntion with" tools.

I am an advocate for bright flashlights with striker bezels...preferably 150 lumens or more.
I am also an advocate for carrying a fixed blade and at least one concealed folder. but thats just me.
I also am and advocate for carrying a 1 million volt stun gun which is about the size of a cell phone.
If you can carry a gun to then do it. but then again...thats just me.

Kimber does make a pretty good oc propellant that blasts 15 feet... I would rather blind them with bright light before using it and know I had a blade or something else to back me up if it just pisses them off...

 

[Deaf Smith]

Both stun guns and pepper spray are the square root of worthless for defense against a serious attack by someone who is trying to commit a violent felony against you.

He's telling the truth. Go look on a pepper spray can or a stun gun. You will see the warning lable saying not to use it on a violent person who may have a weapon.

And as Ken said, use something better.

You want to stop a motivated attacker? Then you need the law firm of Smith & Wesson and back it up with a 12 guage injunction.

Deaf

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

You know Flea, after reading your post describing your environment at and around your home, I had something come to mind..

It sounds more likely then not any trouble you might run into will come from a local source, meaning they will probably know where you live if they are going to mess with you, and if you are going to mess with them with a stun gun or pepper spray, I think you may end up pissing them off and should be prepared for the consequences. I do not know if a gun truely is out of your option list, but if it is, then maybe you can look at moving elsewhere... Obviously everyone has their limitations on options, but while a stun gun or pepper spray may work temporarily to get you out of a tough spot, you might want to make sure you are prepared if they decide to get revenge...I am not saying do not defend yourself, I am simply saying if you do, just be prepared for the possible follow up..

just a thought.. and stay safe.

 

[seasoned]

Any action taken in self defense may cause a retaliation for sure, as LuckyBoxer has stated. In any self defense scenario one of the first things taught is awareness of surroundings, and stay out of high crime areas. In your case, you live in one of these areas. Your options are many, as shown by all the posts, weapons galore to pick from. No one wants to be a prisoner in their home, but staying in past dark would be my first option for sure. After this I would pick one close in weapon, because of the surprise factor involved in most attacks, where they are on you very fast. My choice would be a knife, and I would try to become very good at using it. Unless you are trained in the use of many weapons, your chance of having to pick from many options in the heat of battle are not good. If they are at a distance, run, if they are on you, pick a target in and around their face, and slash. Until you are able to move to another area, your home should be a safe haven, check all windows and locks, and let awareness become your best friend. Once you start any defensive action, follow through is the most important rule.

 

[sgtmac_46]

He's telling the truth. Go look on a pepper spray can or a stun gun. You will see the warning lable saying not to use it on a violent person who may have a weapon.

And as Ken said, use something better.

You want to stop a motivated attacker? Then you need the law firm of Smith & Wesson and back it up with a 12 guage injunction.

Deaf

That's true.....unfortunately in too many places in our society Smith and Wesson have been taken off the table for the public.

OC Spray, properly understood and properly applied, is an effective weapon against violent individuals......yes, there are highly motivated individuals who can fight the effects, but the key word is 'fight'..........99.9% of people are still effected by high potency OC sprays........5% or so just have high pain tolerances......but they are still effected.

Physical self defense skills like punching and kicking become more effective when the opponent is fighting the effects of OC Spray........I can say from personal experience that I can still fight while under the effects of OC Spray......but i'm not 100%. Like the vast majority of individuals, I get walleye vision, my ability to see is restricted to snap shots, the distance I can see is about 5 to 10 feet.

So spraying someone in the face, even if it doesn't stop them, ENHANCES your ability to follow up with other techniques. It may be very difficult to land a hard punch or kick on a particular violent individual......but a face full of OC Spray will increase your odd's of landing good hard hits by providing a distraction for him to fight through.

The mistake, however, is to put all our eggs in the OC basket.......understanding what OC Spray will do and won't do is key to using it effectively.

 

[sgtmac_46]

KenpoTex answered the question nicely and accurately.

Neither stun guns nor OC will stop a motivated attacker.

OC is recommended for "non-compliant non-violent suspects" which means that Bubba doesn't want to get into the car but isn't about to pick up a cinder block and hit you with it by way of punctuation. So you get his attention by hosing him down. Works fine against prisoners through the bars of a cell. Works great against non-violent protestors who are already handcuffed. Doesn't work for squat against someone who is serious about hurting you. The professional literature and a whole bunch of controlled experiments (cf. Phil Messina), a number of dead cops, plenty of personal stories have settled the issue. More details if you really want them.

I also don't like relying on a weapon which is completely at the mercy of the weather, will probably affect me even if it's deployed properly, can't be used in enclosed spaces, makes my attacker stronger and which I know won't stop fat, asthmatic middle-aged me let alone a young, strong, angry guy.

Stun guns? I've been zapped several times in training and just out of curiosity. Some of them had been specially modified to give a stronger zap than is normally allowed. A hornet sting hurts more. Mr. Ayoob uses it as a signal to start firing in some of his advanced firearms classes. So far nobody's fallen to the ground and started twitching. He has gotten punched a few times when the amped-up student reflexively struck out at the source of the pain.

The fine print on the last two stun guns I owned suggested that you should hold the contacts against the eyes, throat or genitals for four to six seconds continuously. I maintain that if you can do that you are already in complete control of the situation.

Tasers? Yes, they work if you hit with both darts. But they work as a way of temporarily immobilizing. When the electricity stops so does the effect. That's great if you're about to land on him with handcuffs and a swarm of officers. Otherwise you're left with a guy who's still capable of hurting you. You've lost the element of surprise. And you've used up your one shot. Unless you're going to take those few seconds to start stomping the bad guy's head really hard you really haven't gained much. And if you're going to do that you might as well shoot him with a real gun as far as the laws concerning deadly force are concerned.

Besides, Tasers are very expensive. And each shot costs more than an entire box of pistol cartridges.

The lesson isn't that OC Spray is ineffective........having been on the giving AND receiving end of both training and REAL WORLD street incidents of OC exposure, I can assure you that the problem isn't that OC is ineffective, but that there are some unrealistic expectations......and some OC formulations that are pretty anemic.

OC should be used aggressively as part, not all, of a plan of action. I use OC as a counter-measure, a distraction device. If I have a combative individual, the OC spray is used to alter all or at least part of his focus. Experiencing intense eye, nose, mouth and facial burning that continues to increase allows the opponent to be distracted which, even if it doesn't overwhelm him, means his focus is not entirely on me anymore......meaning he is no longer fighting with all his focus.

About 90% of folks, however, will be shut down almost entirely by an OC Spray of proper potency.

But because OC spray effects vision, and reduces vision it's an excellent precursor to.......RUNNING AWAY!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cRSury1Vnc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nebzumPp-A4&feature=related

The Taser is generally more effective, however. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7CgNjrXLOg&feature=related

 

[Flea]

I wanted to thank everyone again for your thoughtful responses. I'm on a very busy work schedule this weekend and won't be able to reply properly right now, but I wanted to get back to you.

 

[tellner]

sgtmac, not useless but useless against a motivated person who wants to commit serious violence against you.

I've been on the receiving end of some of the special police-only formulations. I wasn't on drugs. Twice it came as a complete surprise. It wasn't pleasant, but I immediately found a goal and achieved it. The stuff didn't stop me from doing what I set out to do - getting out of the room, finding water and washing my eyes out.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Ok gang.. if you are going to use OC spray here is my recomedations:

1. Get more than one of the same kind and actually go outside and find out just how far it can reach, how big is the 'cloud' (or narrow the streem if it's that type of OC.) What the wind does to the stream. In short, know your weapons capability.

2. Understand the spray's safey and practice getting it off quickly without looking. This is a form of weapons handling. Practice it alot.

3. Put it where either hand can operate it.

4. If you use it, backup (if you can) while firing so the cloud does not contact you. Keep in mind the wind and what it can do for you or against you.

5. Channel your attacker into a kill zone. It can be a hall way, door way, between cars, two or more attackers jammed up together, etc... In otherwords limit their ability to evade the spary.

6. With an empty spray can, practice other SD techniques to learn to fight with more than one type of weapon at once. You would be suprised how many people focus on one weapon and forget they have other ways to fight. You can do 'FOF' this why with other people. See if you can get it out in time or during a struggle.

As for the stun gun, you have to hug the attacker for a few seconds for it to be effective (if it gets a circut.. that is a good contact with them.) Hope you can hang on while they take umbridge to what you are doing.

Deaf

 

[Archangel M]

OC is a great force multiplier for your empty hand skills and can give ya a second or two to access a better weapon...with the added plus of incapacitating or running off the BG on the odd occasion.

If you have it in hand when you need it.

No tool is useless if you know its limitations and applications.

 

[KenpoTex]

To add to Deaf's post...

If you're going to carry OC, I personally think you should be exposed to it so you are familiar with the effects. When you're dealing with joe-crackhead (who you probably should have just shot) is not the time to find out how annoying OC is. In my [thankfully] limited experience with the stuff, when you spray it everyone gets a taste.

If you're not willing to take a direct shot, spray a cloud in the air and walk through it so you still get a taste. Have a hose or sink nearby so you can flush your eyes and a fan so you can get some airflow. It might also be a good idea to have a friend with you as a "spotter" in case you have a bad reaction.

 

[sgtmac_46]

sgtmac, not useless but useless against a motivated person who wants to commit serious violence against you.

I've been on the receiving end of some of the special police-only formulations. I wasn't on drugs. Twice it came as a complete surprise. It wasn't pleasant, but I immediately found a goal and achieved it. The stuff didn't stop me from doing what I set out to do - getting out of the room, finding water and washing my eyes out.

A burst of OC Spray in to your face makes it far easier for me to attain my goal......of a rear naked choke. It's far from useless against a motivated person.

As for 'Special police-only formulations' most of those are from Federal Labs First Defense.........which are pretty much food grade useless.......if you could be more specific about which formulation you were exposed to it would be enlightening.....the majority of agencies use the First Defense, with Sabre Red (more effective) being a close second, followed by Zarc and a small minority using products like Fox Labs 5.3.........which is night and day different from First Defense in effectiveness.

The first problem with First Defense is the water based carrier, which slows down the effectiveness time......it can take up to 5 or 10 seconds for First Defense sprays to take effect, whereas Fox Labs or Zarc are almost instantaneous. Furthermore the perception of heat between First Defense and Fox Labs is like the difference between getting slapped and kicked in the head by a mule.

Choosing the right formulation is a huge variable in OC Sprays.

Finally, by your own admission.......you claim to have achieved your goal, which was getting to water........but that very admission ILLUSTRATES the effectiveness of OC Spray.........your goal BEFORE getting sprayed wasn't to get to water......the OC Spray changed your entire focus toward getting to water to eliminate the burning sensation......that's the POINT! It's about changing focus.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Ok gang.. if you are going to use OC spray here is my recomedations:

1. Get more than one of the same kind and actually go outside and find out just how far it can reach, how big is the 'cloud' (or narrow the streem if it's that type of OC.) What the wind does to the stream. In short, know your weapons capability.

2. Understand the spray's safey and practice getting it off quickly without looking. This is a form of weapons handling. Practice it alot.

3. Put it where either hand can operate it.

4. If you use it, backup (if you can) while firing so the cloud does not contact you. Keep in mind the wind and what it can do for you or against you.

5. Channel your attacker into a kill zone. It can be a hall way, door way, between cars, two or more attackers jammed up together, etc... In otherwords limit their ability to evade the spary.

6. With an empty spray can, practice other SD techniques to learn to fight with more than one type of weapon at once. You would be suprised how many people focus on one weapon and forget they have other ways to fight. You can do 'FOF' this why with other people. See if you can get it out in time or during a struggle.

As for the stun gun, you have to hug the attacker for a few seconds for it to be effective (if it gets a circut.. that is a good contact with them.) Hope you can hang on while they take umbridge to what you are doing.

Deaf

I'll add that with a contact stun gun, you HAVE to be aggressive with it's usage, and target VITAL POINTS..........the groin/pelvic girdle and the side of the neck are primary targets.......you can't expect to merely touch the opponent there and drop them, you have to PURSUE and drive through the target with the stun gun as if you're using it almost a striking weapon.

 

[sgtmac_46]

OC is a great force multiplier for your empty hand skills and can give ya a second or two to access a better weapon...with the added plus of incapacitating or running off the BG on the odd occasion.

If you have it in hand when you need it.

No tool is useless if you know its limitations and applications.

Understanding the nature of the thing and what it will do is key.......even those who argue that they can fight through the effects of OC Spray, i.e. being able to get themselves to water after a brief fight........admit that their entire mindset focus shifted partially or completely to thoughts of finding water and reducing the symptoms.......and if that's all you achieve, you've achieved a greater advantage than before you used the OC Spray.

If OC Spray reduces a guy from 100% effectiveness to, say, 60% or 70% BEFORE I have to even engage in the physical part of the encounter then it's a very useful tool indeed!

 

[Carol]

I'll add that with a contact stun gun, you HAVE to be aggressive with it's usage, and target VITAL POINTS..........the groin/pelvic girdle and the side of the neck are primary targets.......you can't expect to merely touch the opponent there and drop them, you have to PURSUE and drive through the target with the stun gun as if you're using it almost a striking weapon.

One other thing.

To use a stun gun, one must be within arms reach of the attacker.

One must not be in contact with the attacker when the stun gun is deployed. Electricity will find the shortest path to ground and it doesn't care whose body it has to go through.

 

[sgtmac_46]

One other thing.

To use a stun gun, one must be within arms reach of the attacker.

One must not be in contact with the attacker when the stun gun is deployed. Electricity will find the shortest path to ground and it doesn't care whose body it has to go through.

That's actually not true. The electricity takes the shortest path between the two probes on the end of the electrode, they don't go to ground as the stun gun provides it's own ground. That's why a stun gun is only mildly effective because the only area stimulated by the stun gun is the muscle and tissue between the two electrodes on the end.

Even the Taser only stimulates the area between the two darts, and you'll only be shocked if you stick your hand or some part of your body between the two points.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Good gang. Now how about we codify this and make a sticky on how to train and use pepper spray. And the description of what types of pepper spray there are and some idea as to faults and virtues.

Ken's right about spraying yourself a bit (man I hate that) to understand what it will do (but don't do the same thing with a gun... sure don't need to find out what it can do that way!) Add that as number 7.

Carol, I think the stun gun cannot pass through others cause it has a very low amperage (sending abilty) but very high voltage. But everyone do remember that since you have to get into contact range to use it, the attacker may try to take it from you, or just knee and elobow you to death. I prefer the pepper spray to the stun gun.

Deaf

 

[Carol]

Carol, I think the stun gun cannot pass through others cause it has a very low amperage (sending abilty) but very high voltage. But everyone do remember that since you have to get into contact range to use it, the attacker may try to take it from you, or just knee and elobow you to death. I prefer the pepper spray to the stun gun.

Deaf

Sarge is right...it goes from one electrode to another. I was thinking about a arc from a source like a Van Der Graaf. Sorry guys...too much stress and not enough sleep. Too embarassing.

Personally I prefer to keep a distance as well. I'd rather shine a bright light, swing my lapop bag, run like hell ... anything that keeps me out of striking range of the BG. I don't carry OC spray now but I may in the future for similar reasons.

I'm not a big fan of stun guns (for myself). If I am close enough to a BG to be able to reach a vital target with my short arms, then something bad has happened. I don't think I'd be relying on a stun gun at that point. That's even before the legal issues (of living on a state line).

 

[Flea]

Well, I think this thread has taken me full circle. I still don't know which way to go on this, but now I have a much more literate view as to why I don't know which way to go, and a more bewildering array of options. Thanks guys.

:lol:

I'm still going to accept my friend's stun gun simply because he was kind enough to offer it. I don't have to carry it all the time, but it'll be a nice option just in case.

LuckyKBoxer, your answer is by far the best and that's a work in progress. I've been driving around my chosen (new) neighborhood with a notebook copying down addresses and realtor phone numbers as I find them. My main obstacle there is my low income, so I have to strike a delicate balance between "affordable foreclosure" and "not so broken down that I can't afford to fix it." It's a challenge, but I'm enjoying the process. Best of all, I've looked up the crime stats for this area and it's dull as dishwater.

In the meantime my pepper spray, new stun gun, and Killer Hound will have to do until I get passable with Systema. I thank you all for the helpful discussion.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Sarge is right...it goes from one electrode to another. I was thinking about a arc from a source like a Van Der Graaf. Sorry guys...too much stress and not enough sleep. Too embarassing.

Personally I prefer to keep a distance as well. I'd rather shine a bright light, swing my lapop bag, run like hell ... anything that keeps me out of striking range of the BG. I don't carry OC spray now but I may in the future for similar reasons.

I'm not a big fan of stun guns (for myself). If I am close enough to a BG to be able to reach a vital target with my short arms, then something bad has happened. I don't think I'd be relying on a stun gun at that point. That's even before the legal issues (of living on a state line).

Stun guns are a lot like using pressure points.......it has it's place, but it's most useful when you are physically more powerful than your opponent, and are looking for a way to subdue them with minimum damage and effort.