Tang Soo Do and the Chinese connection

T

TangSooGuy

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I told myself I'd never get involved in this debate, but Oh well, I feel a need to share what i have learned, even if it comes back to burn me.

Disclaimer: Before anyone flames me for posting this information, please don't think I accept this as the one and only truth. There is probably as much evidence for contardicting theories, ideas and viewpoints. This is only what I have come to believe through my own research.

1. Tang Soo Do: Tang refers to Tang Dynasty of China, and refers to the cultural and philosphical influence of China on this Korean martial art. Soo means hand, but implies fist, punch, etc. Do means way of life. Literally: The way of the China Hand. It can be argued that 'Tang' as a different character can mean open or empty, just as 'kara' in karate can have two meanings. My personal belief is that this is open to interpretation, but the 'Open/Empty' interpretation of 'Tang' seems to be more ploitically than historically motivated.

2. The Pinan/ Pyung Ahn forms. For a long time, TSD practitioners maintained that Hwang Kee learned these forms while visiting China. This has puzzled many people, since these forms are Okinawan, created by Itosu (Idos). Those who point this out claim that since these forms are not Chinese, TSD has no Chinese connection. In my opinion. this is a rather narrow-minded point of view, but more on that later.

The fact remains that the Pyung Ahn (Pinan) forms as practiced today are not Chinese. I do not dispute this. They were created by Itosu, an Okinawan. The question many do not ask though, is what they were created from. Most tracing of this goes back to two forms- Jae Nam, and Kong Sang Koon/ Kusanku (both of Chinese origin).

Where then was Itosu exposed to these forms? His own teacher is accepted to be Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura. It is generally accepted that Matsumura was taught by Kong Sang Koon inwhile Kong Sang Koon served as military attache to Okinawa. Many propose that Kong Sang Koon may have taught the form Jae Nam to Matsumura, who in turn passed it along to Itosu. Others propose that it was actually another Chinese master who taught Jae Nam to Itosu directly, while the Kong Sang Koon form was taught to Matsumura who passed in on to Itosu. Whatever the origins, it is commonly accepted (at least in TSD circles) that the Pyung Ahn forms were created using Jae Nam and possibly Kong Sang Koon as their beginnings. Now to say that forms created using two Chinese forms as their starting point do not have a chinese influence does not make sense to me. Therefore, if the Pyung Ahn forms are Chinese influenced, Tang Soo Do is Chinese influenced.

3. The Pyung Ahn/ Bassai/ Kong Sang Koon connection. For the purposes of this post, when I refer to Bassai, I refer to the Greater Bassai, or Bassi Dai. There are many who argue as to the origins of this form as well. Since we cannot attach one creator to this form, it is hard to say, but my research has led me to the belief that the Bassi forms were created from the Form Pal Che, which goes back to 16th century Southern China, quite possibly to the Shaolin Temple Kwon Bop System.

You can further see evidence of this in the similarites between Kong Sang Koon and Bassai, which share some of the same movements. Bassai shares some of the same movements with some of the Pyung Ahn Hyungs, and many of the Pyung Ahn Hyungs incorporate movements found in Kong Sang Koon. The one real binding and unifying thread I have found in these three forms is China, once again indicating a Chinese influence to Tang Soo Do, even if the forms themselves came to TSD through Okinawa, which again I do not dispute.

4. Other forms practiced in TSD. To limit TSD's Chinese connections to only the forms above is a mistake. Forms like Ro hai (Lohai), Jindo (Chinto) and others are also practiced. While once again the origins of these forms are debated endlessly, I know I have personally seen footage of Chinese paractitioners (including shaolin monks and wushu practitioners) practicing forms with unmistakable similarities to Jindo, Ro hai, and Bassai. I have been told on numerous occasions that the most advanced form taught in TSD is the Tai Chi form.
Once again there is evidence for a Chinese influence.

5. Philosophy. Much of Korean and TSd philosophy can be traced to Confucianism and Taoism, and specifically the Tao te Ching and the I Ching, all of which are Chinese in origin. The belief in Um Yang (Yin and Yang) is central to TSD philosophy, and much of this philosophy can be traced to Lao Tze (Li Er), a Chinese philosopher. Again, there is Chinese influence.

All I am trying to point out is that the people who say there is no foundation for belief that the practice of TSD is in any way influenced by Chinese martial arts are incorrect. However I would equally like to say that those practitioners of TSD maintain that there is no influence of Okinawan martial art in TSD are equally incorrect.

Any research I have conducted shows me that much of what we know as true martial art today can trace its path back to China.
There is a natural cycle of cultural interchange from China to Okinawa to Korea in the South, and from China to Korea in the north.

I hope that this has been in some way helpful. It is not my wish to debate endlessly whether China has a place in TSD. It is my belief that it does. Feel free to present other viewpoints, as I am willing to read and take in any information. I am merely stating what my own research into this has shown me, while I am sure that others have uncovered evidence for other points of view.

The problem is that martial arts have always been political, and history has always been revisionist, so getting down to "the" truth is a difficult if not impossible task.
 

Cthulhu

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TSG, that was a great post! Lots of good information as well as clearly stated personal opinions.

As far as the Okinawan forms and TSD/TKD are concerned, I've always looked at it as Chinese influence via Okinawa. ;)

Cthulhu
 

arnisador

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Originally posted by Cthulhu

As far as the Okinawan forms and TSD/TKD are concerned, I've always looked at it as Chinese influence via Okinawa.

Me too, and I agree that this was a most interesting post. What is the Okinawan term for the Jae Nam form by the way?
 

Cthulhu

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Originally posted by arnisador



Me too, and I agree that this was a most interesting post. What is the Okinawan term for the Jae Nam form by the way?

I could be mistaken, but I think it's what the Koreans used to call the Pyong An forms.

Cthulhu
 
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Z

Zeke

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Great Post TSG:asian: When you present it that way I believe you are absolutly correct . Regarding the Chinese/Empty hand debat I belive as you do that Tang Soo Do never became "Empty". The funny thing is that Tang Soo Do's korean sisterart Taekwondo - The Moo Duk Kwan version and thereby also some of the Tang Soo Do instructors art - had a few years of calling itself Kang Soo Do (Empty hand) before going back to TKD. That charge was made when the Shorin ryu style changed it's name from Chinese to Empty hand. So....... ??
Take care
Zeke
:asian:
 
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Shinzu

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excellent thread here.

it i said that TSD has developed from shotokan karate which was founded by gichen funakoshi.

hwang kee's basic and phyung forms were developed from the tykiyoko and hein forms.

i have studied both shotokan and TSD so i see the major similarities. they are almost identical in technique.
 

karatekid1975

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I agree Shinzu.

My TSD dojang or members never denied the Okinawan Influence on the pyung ahn forms. In our student manual, it gives credit to Idos. I also heard that Shotokan is almost the same as TSD. I also found out so is Shorin-ryu. Which those arts are Okinawan arts. There isn't much difference at all between the three.

TangSooGuy hit it on the botton ;)
 
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Yossarian75

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Hi all
Great post TSDguy. About the Pyung ahns etc, I have heard on many occasions that GM Hwang Kee Learned them from a book. Many of the early TSD practitioners had experience in Japanese/Okinawan Karate and brought some of the higher forms like Ro Hi into TSD, I believe there used to be a lot more Karate forms practiced in early TSD. The Chil Sung Hyung look very chinese and seem to be influenced by Yang Style Tiaji.

"I have been told on numerous occasions that the most advanced form taught in TSD is the Tai Chi form.
Once again there is evidence for a Chinese influence."

I beleive this form is called Tae Gyuk something(sorry memory not working) and is almost Identical to one of the Yang family Tiaji forms.

To me the thing which distances us from Shotokan is not the moves we perform but the way in which we perform them. I have noticed that Karate practitioners perform techniques with a lot of tension, whereas we will be a lot more relaxed in the execution of techniques. This is just an observation from training with various Karate Practitioners.

I believe the Koreans were reluctant to admit to Japanese influence in TSD due to the recent history between the two nations(occupation, suppresion of Korean culture etc). There is no doubt in my mind that TSD is influenced by Chinese and Japanese/Okinawan arts.
 
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rana_hapkido_panama2002

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Hi and be blessed TSD Guy.

I want to congratulate you on this thread, logic plased based about the ideas you have on the information you have come to.

HAP

Ramon Navarro
Hapkido SabomNim
&
Tang Soo Do KyoSa
From the country of Panama
 

kenmpoka

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Originally posted by TangSooGuy

I told myself I'd never get involved in this debate, but Oh well, I feel a need to share what i have learned, even if it comes back to burn me.

Disclaimer: Before anyone flames me for posting this information, please don't think I accept this as the one and only truth. There is probably as much evidence for contardicting theories, ideas and viewpoints. This is only what I have come to believe through my own research.

1. Tang Soo Do: Tang refers to Tang Dynasty of China, and refers to the cultural and philosphical influence of China on this Korean martial art. Soo means hand, but implies fist, punch, etc. Do means way of life. Literally: The way of the China Hand. It can be argued that 'Tang' as a different character can mean open or empty, just as 'kara' in karate can have two meanings. My personal belief is that this is open to interpretation, but the 'Open/Empty' interpretation of 'Tang' seems to be more ploitically than historically motivated.

2. The Pinan/ Pyung Ahn forms. For a long time, TSD practitioners maintained that Hwang Kee learned these forms while visiting China. This has puzzled many people, since these forms are Okinawan, created by Itosu (Idos). Those who point this out claim that since these forms are not Chinese, TSD has no Chinese connection. In my opinion. this is a rather narrow-minded point of view, but more on that later.

The fact remains that the Pyung Ahn (Pinan) forms as practiced today are not Chinese. I do not dispute this. They were created by Itosu, an Okinawan. The question many do not ask though, is what they were created from. Most tracing of this goes back to two forms- Jae Nam, and Kong Sang Koon/ Kusanku (both of Chinese origin).

Where then was Itosu exposed to these forms? His own teacher is accepted to be Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura. It is generally accepted that Matsumura was taught by Kong Sang Koon inwhile Kong Sang Koon served as military attache to Okinawa. Many propose that Kong Sang Koon may have taught the form Jae Nam to Matsumura, who in turn passed it along to Itosu. Others propose that it was actually another Chinese master who taught Jae Nam to Itosu directly, while the Kong Sang Koon form was taught to Matsumura who passed in on to Itosu. Whatever the origins, it is commonly accepted (at least in TSD circles) that the Pyung Ahn forms were created using Jae Nam and possibly Kong Sang Koon as their beginnings. Now to say that forms created using two Chinese forms as their starting point do not have a chinese influence does not make sense to me. Therefore, if the Pyung Ahn forms are Chinese influenced, Tang Soo Do is Chinese influenced.

3. The Pyung Ahn/ Bassai/ Kong Sang Koon connection. For the purposes of this post, when I refer to Bassai, I refer to the Greater Bassai, or Bassi Dai. There are many who argue as to the origins of this form as well. Since we cannot attach one creator to this form, it is hard to say, but my research has led me to the belief that the Bassi forms were created from the Form Pal Che, which goes back to 16th century Southern China, quite possibly to the Shaolin Temple Kwon Bop System.

You can further see evidence of this in the similarites between Kong Sang Koon and Bassai, which share some of the same movements. Bassai shares some of the same movements with some of the Pyung Ahn Hyungs, and many of the Pyung Ahn Hyungs incorporate movements found in Kong Sang Koon. The one real binding and unifying thread I have found in these three forms is China, once again indicating a Chinese influence to Tang Soo Do, even if the forms themselves came to TSD through Okinawa, which again I do not dispute.

4. Other forms practiced in TSD. To limit TSD's Chinese connections to only the forms above is a mistake. Forms like Ro hai (Lohai), Jindo (Chinto) and others are also practiced. While once again the origins of these forms are debated endlessly, I know I have personally seen footage of Chinese paractitioners (including shaolin monks and wushu practitioners) practicing forms with unmistakable similarities to Jindo, Ro hai, and Bassai. I have been told on numerous occasions that the most advanced form taught in TSD is the Tai Chi form.
Once again there is evidence for a Chinese influence.

5. Philosophy. Much of Korean and TSd philosophy can be traced to Confucianism and Taoism, and specifically the Tao te Ching and the I Ching, all of which are Chinese in origin. The belief in Um Yang (Yin and Yang) is central to TSD philosophy, and much of this philosophy can be traced to Lao Tze (Li Er), a Chinese philosopher. Again, there is Chinese influence.

All I am trying to point out is that the people who say there is no foundation for belief that the practice of TSD is in any way influenced by Chinese martial arts are incorrect. However I would equally like to say that those practitioners of TSD maintain that there is no influence of Okinawan martial art in TSD are equally incorrect.

Any research I have conducted shows me that much of what we know as true martial art today can trace its path back to China.
There is a natural cycle of cultural interchange from China to Okinawa to Korea in the South, and from China to Korea in the north.

I hope that this has been in some way helpful. It is not my wish to debate endlessly whether China has a place in TSD. It is my belief that it does. Feel free to present other viewpoints, as I am willing to read and take in any information. I am merely stating what my own research into this has shown me, while I am sure that others have uncovered evidence for other points of view.

The problem is that martial arts have always been political, and history has always been revisionist, so getting down to "the" truth is a difficult if not impossible task.

Good write-up my friend, but there are a few problems.
Like you said the Pinan forms probably were devised from Kusanku (Kong Sang Kung) and Chanan (Jae Nam). Both Kusanku and Chanan had gone through some changes (Pattern, application, the evenness of right an left sides, stances) by Okinawans and were influenced by their"Te" system. This is why you can't find any Chinese forms that resemble CLOSELY to these mother forms today. Gichin Funakoshi and later on Kenwa Mabuni introduced these forms to the mainland Japan. Funakoshi changed the order of Okinawan Pinan I and II and renamed them Heian. He also changed some of the stances and movements in the forms to modernize and "Japanize" them. Korean Tang Soo Do follows these changes as well!!!

Hwang Kee did not learn these forms from any Chinese teachers. This has been confirmed by his son the current head of Soo Bahk Do. The late GM Kee also changed some of the application of the techniques to accomodate the Korean kicking strategies.

So a technique for a wrist lock and knee break was changed to a high thrust kick as an example in Bassai(Patsai). Other forms such as Jion, Jutte(Jin Thwe-Ship Soo), Gankaku-Chinto(Jin Do), are all Funakoshi's versions (Shotokan). Even the Kee Cho Hyung I, II, III, all resemble the Funakoshi's(creation) Taikyoku I, II,III to the "T".

Even looking past the forms, all basics minus the fancy kicking, stances, blocks(method), postures, the counting and the tempo of the forms are all copies of Japanese Karate.

The "Chil Sung" forms are the creation of GM Kee, incorporating some Tai Chi postures such as Ward off left, right, press and roll (with incorrect usage of Tai Chi principles and application) plus again movements borrowed and rearranged from Okinawan/Japanese forms. Please look carefuly and I am sure you will see them.

I'll be glad to discuss all forms and basics and their resemblance to Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) in detail if you like to.

Respectfully,
:asian:
 
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Dim Mak

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I could only retrieve the "Chulgi" form. Wow, that was aweful.

"Chulki" is the Korean translation of "Tekki" - or "Iron Horse" or some variation.

The Korean translation of the Naihanchi (Tekki) forms is:

Chulki Cho Dan #1
Chulki Yi Dan #2
Chulki Sam Dan #3

It is also appropriate to use the term "Kema" in place of "Chulki." "Kema" sounds like " Kee Mah."

i.e. Kema Cho Dan
Kema Yi Dan
Kema Sam Dan

The Korean translation for Bassai is, "Bal Sek."

Historical note:

Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura (1797-1889) was taught by Karate Sakugawa(1733-1815).

Karate Sakugawa studied with Kusanku(Kong Son Kun) in 1756 and originated the form "Kong Son Kun" to preserve the techniques taught by Kusanku. Kusanku was a Chinese military envoy that visited Okinawa in the 1700's.

Sokon Matsumura never studied directly with Kusanku.

On a side note: Karate Sakugawa is credited with originating the "Dojo Kun" or "Dojang Hun." - Training Hall Oath

Kanken Toyama(1888-1966), the only other student under Itosu to be given the title of, Shihanshi, from Itosu, taught the Okinawan forms in his school in Tokyo called, "Shudokan," - not to be confused with Funakoshi Gichin's, "Shotokan." Toyama studied under Itosu in Okinawa from around 1900-1915(when Itosu died). Toyama re-located to Japan and opened the "Shudokan" in March 1930, and admitted to not creating anything new, but rather preserving the teachings of Itosu.

R. McLain
 
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TangSooGuy

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Actually Dim mak, youy are correct- this was written quite hastily quite a while back...

the appropriate line tracing the hyungs back to China should be something more like:

Kong Sang Koon (Kusanku) ->Sakugawa (in Shuri village)->Matsumura ->Itosu


As for other (very correct) points that were made by others:

I don't deny that the hyungs as we practice them today come through Okinawa, and then Funakoshi and Japan,nor that this is where Hwang kee picked them up, only there is still a Chinese Influence on these forms.

Basically what I am saying is that there is a Chinese influence on Okinawan and Japanese forms, and thereby a Chinese influence on Tang Soo Do as well. It just puzzles me when people refuse to accept that there could be any connection at all to China, just as much as it puzzles me when people try to ignore the Okinawan and Japanese influence. I try hard not to deny either.

I have seen photos and video from previous WTSDA expeditions to China that clearly show Chinese Saholin monks practicing forms which strongly resemble Pyung Ahn E Dan, Bassai, and Rohai (Lohi)..so the conection is still there.

As for application: I've always been taught that there are nearly infinite applications for any of the moves in these forms, so to say that the application was changed puzzles me somewhat...if you mean that the execution of the move waschanged in such a way that the original applications of those movements can no longer work, I guess I see what you are saying, but I have always been taught to lookbeyons the most obvious appllicaton to seehow many others could work for the same movement. I try to think of forms as a tool that has come down from teachers of the past- nothing has really been 'lost' because it's all right there in front of you - it justtakes years of study to see it. i know it sounds like a cliche, but i am just now begiing to link forms to sparring in a way that i can truly use dome of the applications from the forms in my natural way of fighting.


In addition, I am beginning to see that Tang Soo Do (at least as we practice it) has a much stronger Chinese influence after 4th dan, as things begin to become much more internal and less external - not really any good way for me to explain it, other than it is happening inmy own training- the 'hard' from earlier on is beginning to 'soften' and become much more balanced. many of the movements as i do them now are very different than as i did them at 1st Dan, and things that i once sa only as strikes and Blocks have become grappling, joint lock, and pressure point techniques now.

Sorry, I got off on a pretty big tangent there. I didn't mean to revive a dead thread, just wanted to clarify some of my own points and try to rectify some mistakes.
 
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T

Teacher

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Originally posted by Cthulhu
TSG, that was a great post! Lots of good information as well as clearly stated personal opinions.

As far as the Okinawan forms and TSD/TKD are concerned, I've always looked at it as Chinese influence via Okinawa. ;)

Cthulhu

Jae Nam is not Pyong Ahn. Chiang Nan or Channan were two terms used on Okinawa for Jae Nam. Go back to Pyong Ahn history. Pyong Ahn is the Korean version of the Pinan Kata developed by Okinawan Karate Master Itosu Yasutsune (often called Master Idos by Koreans). He created these forms between 1903 and 1913 and purportedly based them upon the form Kushanku (Kong Sang Koon) and Channan (aka Jae Nam). The Jae Nam for no longer exists and has been completely lost. We aren't even sure if there was actually a set or routine by that name but instead this might have been a broader term for a style of Southern Chinese martial arts. Some believe that there were two forms in Jae Nam and that two of the Pyong Ahn make up one while the other three make up the other. But even those proponents can't tell you which two makes of which form. So much for that theory. Another fly in that ointment is that there is a preponderance of techniques in the Pyong Ahn forms that performed exactly as they are in the Kong Sang Koon form. This would lead us to infer that the Pyong Ahn forms were actually created from expanding parts of Kong Sang Koon and then adding some extra movements.....and maybe they are the techniques of this Jae Nam art. OH..by the way...Jae Nam refers to (a) a geographic location in Southern China, (b) the name of a River (c) the name of a Shaolin Monk, or (d) all the above. The anwer is..."D". WHich only serves to make the debate even more confusing.

JH
 
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L

Len Losik

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TangSooGuy said:
I told myself I'd never get involved in this debate, but Oh well, I feel a need to share what i have learned, even if it comes back to burn me.

Disclaimer: Before anyone flames me for posting this information, please don't think I accept this as the one and only truth. There is probably as much evidence for contardicting theories, ideas and viewpoints. This is only what I have come to believe through my own research.

1. Tang Soo Do: Tang refers to Tang Dynasty of China, and refers to the cultural and philosphical influence of China on this Korean martial art. Soo means hand, but implies fist, punch, etc. Do means way of life. Literally: The way of the China Hand. It can be argued that 'Tang' as a different character can mean open or empty, just as 'kara' in karate can have two meanings. My personal belief is that this is open to interpretation, but the 'Open/Empty' interpretation of 'Tang' seems to be more ploitically than historically motivated.

2. The Pinan/ Pyung Ahn forms. For a long time, TSD practitioners maintained that Hwang Kee learned these forms while visiting China. This has puzzled many people, since these forms are Okinawan, created by Itosu (Idos). Those who point this out claim that since these forms are not Chinese, TSD has no Chinese connection. In my opinion. this is a rather narrow-minded point of view, but more on that later.

The fact remains that the Pyung Ahn (Pinan) forms as practiced today are not Chinese. I do not dispute this. They were created by Itosu, an Okinawan. The question many do not ask though, is what they were created from. Most tracing of this goes back to two forms- Jae Nam, and Kong Sang Koon/ Kusanku (both of Chinese origin).

Where then was Itosu exposed to these forms? His own teacher is accepted to be Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura. It is generally accepted that Matsumura was taught by Kong Sang Koon inwhile Kong Sang Koon served as military attache to Okinawa. Many propose that Kong Sang Koon may have taught the form Jae Nam to Matsumura, who in turn passed it along to Itosu. Others propose that it was actually another Chinese master who taught Jae Nam to Itosu directly, while the Kong Sang Koon form was taught to Matsumura who passed in on to Itosu. Whatever the origins, it is commonly accepted (at least in TSD circles) that the Pyung Ahn forms were created using Jae Nam and possibly Kong Sang Koon as their beginnings. Now to say that forms created using two Chinese forms as their starting point do not have a chinese influence does not make sense to me. Therefore, if the Pyung Ahn forms are Chinese influenced, Tang Soo Do is Chinese influenced.

3. The Pyung Ahn/ Bassai/ Kong Sang Koon connection. For the purposes of this post, when I refer to Bassai, I refer to the Greater Bassai, or Bassi Dai. There are many who argue as to the origins of this form as well. Since we cannot attach one creator to this form, it is hard to say, but my research has led me to the belief that the Bassi forms were created from the Form Pal Che, which goes back to 16th century Southern China, quite possibly to the Shaolin Temple Kwon Bop System.

You can further see evidence of this in the similarites between Kong Sang Koon and Bassai, which share some of the same movements. Bassai shares some of the same movements with some of the Pyung Ahn Hyungs, and many of the Pyung Ahn Hyungs incorporate movements found in Kong Sang Koon. The one real binding and unifying thread I have found in these three forms is China, once again indicating a Chinese influence to Tang Soo Do, even if the forms themselves came to TSD through Okinawa, which again I do not dispute.

4. Other forms practiced in TSD. To limit TSD's Chinese connections to only the forms above is a mistake. Forms like Ro hai (Lohai), Jindo (Chinto) and others are also practiced. While once again the origins of these forms are debated endlessly, I know I have personally seen footage of Chinese paractitioners (including shaolin monks and wushu practitioners) practicing forms with unmistakable similarities to Jindo, Ro hai, and Bassai. I have been told on numerous occasions that the most advanced form taught in TSD is the Tai Chi form.
Once again there is evidence for a Chinese influence.

5. Philosophy. Much of Korean and TSd philosophy can be traced to Confucianism and Taoism, and specifically the Tao te Ching and the I Ching, all of which are Chinese in origin. The belief in Um Yang (Yin and Yang) is central to TSD philosophy, and much of this philosophy can be traced to Lao Tze (Li Er), a Chinese philosopher. Again, there is Chinese influence.

All I am trying to point out is that the people who say there is no foundation for belief that the practice of TSD is in any way influenced by Chinese martial arts are incorrect. However I would equally like to say that those practitioners of TSD maintain that there is no influence of Okinawan martial art in TSD are equally incorrect.

Any research I have conducted shows me that much of what we know as true martial art today can trace its path back to China.
There is a natural cycle of cultural interchange from China to Okinawa to Korea in the South, and from China to Korea in the north.

I hope that this has been in some way helpful. It is not my wish to debate endlessly whether China has a place in TSD. It is my belief that it does. Feel free to present other viewpoints, as I am willing to read and take in any information. I am merely stating what my own research into this has shown me, while I am sure that others have uncovered evidence for other points of view.

The problem is that martial arts have always been political, and history has always been revisionist, so getting down to "the" truth is a difficult if not impossible task.
Hello All,

The original five founders of Tang Soo Do all had black belts from Japanese instructors in Japan except Hwang Kee. Hwang Kee had a Chinese martial arts background. He knew and taught the Tai Chi Chuan form (Tae Kuek Kwan), which made him a Tai Chi Chuan instructor which is never discussed, Dam Toi and So Rim Jang Kwan forms. These forms were part of the original Hwa Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan style that did not survive in 1947. Though, he continued to teach his Chinese forms for several decades. They appear in lists of Moo Duk Kwan Hyungs in at least 2 of his English versions of Tang Soo Do Soo Bahk Do published in 1970 and 1978.

In order to "catch up" with the other 4 Korean kwan Instructors that were teaching Japanese Karate as Tang Soo Do, Hwang Kee began adding Okinawan techniques and forms from book(s) located where he workded. He even began awarding black belts to his students a year after he began teaching the Okinawan forms even though he had never tested for one.


By the end of the 1950', Hwang Kee had all the well known Okinawan forms in his Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan plus he continued to teach his Chinese forms.

The Chinese forms finally get dropped from Moo Duk Kwan publications in the 1980's. They get replaced with the more Chineses flavored forms of Chil Sang, Yuk Ro and Hwa Sun.

Most of this is in his book, "The History of the Moo Duk Kwan" available through his remaining organisation.
 

glad2bhere

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I wanted to take a moment and express my concern at the easy manner in which people seem to be shifting back and forth between the Okinawan and Japanese renditions of these kata. Using Kang Uk Lees' book as a resource I see strong similarities between the Shudokan/Shotokai/Shotokan versions and those of the Tang Soo Do material. Were I to offer guidance, my personal recommendation would be to follow the Okinawan versions rather than the Japanese, but thats just my own personal preference. However, I think for the purposes of this discussion people would be better served by limiting the scope to the Japanese version. In this way we could avoid getting bogged down in lineage issues and focus primarily on the biomechanics of the techniques. Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
 
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dosandojang

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Master Dan Nolan says there is NO Chinese connection to China via Doju Hwang Kee...Other than TSD copied Shorin Ryu by way of ShotoKan....
 

RRouuselot

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TangSooGuy said:
1. Tang Soo Do: Tang refers to Tang Dynasty of China, and refers to the cultural and philosphical influence of China on this Korean martial art. Soo means hand, but implies fist, punch, etc. Do means way of life. Literally: The way of the China Hand. It can be argued that 'Tang' as a different character can mean open or empty, just as 'kara' in karate can have two meanings. My personal belief is that this is open to interpretation, but the 'Open/Empty' interpretation of 'Tang' seems to be more ploitically than historically motivated.
This is not true. They are not open to any interpretation at all.
The kanji for Tang and kara (empty) are written totally different, and as such are 2 totally different words. It's like saying the meaning for "cot" and "caught" are the same but open to interpetation.
The tang kanji that is used in Tang Soo Do is the same as the old To (kara/tang) kanji used in the old way to write Karate Do/Tode.
Tang Soo Do is nothing more than the Korean way to say Karate Do/Tode



TangSooGuy said:
2. The Pinan/ Pyung Ahn forms. For a long time, TSD practitioners maintained that Hwang Kee learned these forms while visiting China. This has puzzled many people, since these forms are Okinawan, created by Itosu (Idos). Those who point this out claim that since these forms are not Chinese, TSD has no Chinese connection. In my opinion. this is a rather narrow-minded point of view, but more on that later.

The fact remains that the Pyung Ahn (Pinan) forms as practiced today are not Chinese. I do not dispute this. They were created by Itosu, an Okinawan. The question many do not ask though, is what they were created from. Most tracing of this goes back to two forms- Jae Nam, and Kong Sang Koon/ Kusanku (both of Chinese origin).
Most like they came from Kusanku and Annan



I hate to sound argumentative because this is also a touchy subject among TKD folks as well but simply put I have seen little if any proof that Tang Soo Do has a 2,000 year history from Korea as some Koreans as well as TSD folks in the west would have one think.
More actual evidence like it's name and the Kata practiced there in suggest it came from Okinawa via Japan and no where else less than 100 years ago.
 

glad2bhere

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Dear Robert:

Since I have been using the transmission of martail science through Okinawa to Japan as a kind of model for structuring my research into Korean material I thought I would take a moment and just "tweak" your response which is pretty much on the money. For people who are wondering, my Cit. for this is John Sells "UNANTE- Secrets of Karate. A truely excellent book which is both well written and well-researched.

Funakoshi, Gichin in both his autobiography, KARATE-DO: MY WAY OF LIFE and his masterwork, KARATE-DO KYOHAN relates that he took it upon himself to change the characters from the commonly used "Tang" (referring to Chinese origin) to "Tang"(referring to empty) in an effort to distance his art from Chinese martial tradition and make it more universal to the world as a path of personal development. My personal opinion is that it also didn't hurt as he sought to introduce his art to the Japanese educational system the way one of his teachers, Itosu, had done in Okinawa.

As far as the Chinese influence in the Korean MA I think we really need to delve into this. Using the Japanese versions of Okinawan reorganizations of Chinese material is a pretty roundabout way of getting to Korean arts. Itosu was instrumental in developing and modifying Okinawan material and is generally identified as the originator of the last three Pinan Kata (the first 2 are often ascribed to his teacher, Kyan, Chotoku) either deriving them from the no-longer-extant Channon kata or possibly from material found in the KuShanKu kata. In any event he seemed determined to find a more user friendly (and less combative) alternative to the traditional introductory kata Naifanchi, which he is likewise associated with having reportedly split the original kata into two pieces and adding the third version as well.

OK, so where does that leave us as far as Chinese influence? Well, there are a couple pathes one can take.

1.) The MYTBTJ was one source Hwang Kee drew on for his material. The KWON BUP chapter as organized by the Koreans has little to recommend it in its current 2-man format. However it IS based on Gen Qis' Boxing Canon of 31 techniques. Some 29 of these techniques are said to be derived from Taizu Long Fist (Chang Chuan) Boxing, and this same source is significant in the development of Chen Tai Chi Chuan. So there is one connection there.

2.) A second connection IS through TCC though not the Yang Style that Hwang Kee is reputed to have studied in Manchuria. Rather I suggest one study the more demanding and the argueably more martial Chen TCC with special focus on the CANNON FIST form. This form is available on both DVD/VCD and video tape for people who are careful readers of advertising in such magazines as KUNG FU and INSIDE KUNG FU here in the States.

3.) Finally the are a myriad of Chinese Boxing tradiions in the Shandong (NE China close to Korea) and Hebei provinces. There is also considerable emphasis on kicking techniques in this area and spilling over the border into Manchuria. Leaving behind the modern Wu Shu reorganizations of Chinese traditions by the Chinese in 1927 I suggest more focus be placed on the pre-Revolution traditions including Taizu Long Fist, Red Fist (both Large and Small styles), Hong and Lost Track Boxing just to name a few. There is a growing availability of these traditions on VCD (See: Jarek Szymanski website "Inside China"). Traditions have been lapping back and forth across these borders for centuries and I think we would do well to give them their "propers".

Sorry this got so long, guy. I just throw it out for what it is worth.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
 

RRouuselot

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glad2bhere said:
Dear Robert:

Since I have been using the transmission of martail science through Okinawa to Japan as a kind of model for structuring my research into Korean material I thought I would take a moment and just "tweak" your response which is pretty much on the money. For people who are wondering, my Cit. for this is John Sells "UNANTE- Secrets of Karate. A truely excellent book which is both well written and well-researched.

Funakoshi, Gichin in both his autobiography, KARATE-DO: MY WAY OF LIFE and his masterwork, KARATE-DO KYOHAN relates that he took it upon himself to change the characters from the commonly used "Tang" (referring to Chinese origin) to "Tang"(referring to empty) in an effort to distance his art from Chinese martial tradition and make it more universal to the world as a path of personal development. My personal opinion is that it also didn't hurt as he sought to introduce his art to the Japanese educational system the way one of his teachers, Itosu, had done in Okinawa.
Again, I say the Tang (chinese) kanji and the Kara (empty) kanji are not the same. The Kara (empty) kanji CAN NEVER be read as tang.......ku, sora, kara yes but NEVER as tang.

As far as Funakoshi "changing" the way it was written and his reason for doing so.......well Funakoshi was not the first. In fact several others like Itosu, Hanashiro and several others wrote Karate using the Ku kanji instead of the Tang Knaji years before Funakoshi.
Funakoshi "borrowed" what they had done in an effort to make Karate more appealing and popular to Japan.....a counrty about to engage in a war with China.

If you want to read better and more accurate info on Karate history I suggest you look at Pat McCarthy's works instead of John Sells.
 

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