Talking about Military Combat as a Civillian martial artist.

[Darth F.Takeda]

This came about in a thread about Jujdo/Jujutsu Self defense in the Judo/Jujutsu forum. Iposted this there but felt it might be an interesting discussion and am curious as to what others Military and civillian think.

Dylan

They do call them MARTIAL ARTS.


A Marine was offended by a comment made by a civillian about combat.
So am I to understand that Civillians should not discuss military combat?
That's what was just implied.

Never been in the service (got asthma, tried 3 times) but I was raised by a 3 tour vet, his Dad was a WW2 vet, most of my step dad's friends were Vietna and Korea vets. I always had an intrest in Military history, weapons and martial arts.

The dojo I train in was mostly made up of Marines (It started at Larson's gym in Quantico, we are Quantico Dojo and our Kai is Quantico Kai. the father of MCMAP studied in the Dojo for a number of years) before 9-11. Many of our students are retired Marines.
Our late sempai was in Spec ops for about 20 years of a 26 year carreer in the Army and a few of those who served with him also studied with us.
Our sensei trained LRRPs in the 60s while in the Army.

My late sempai, Col James Tirey,USA(ret) and I would discuss warfare alot and I did ask him if it botherd him talking with a civie about it. He said no, there are simularities between warfare and civillian fighting (and as he pointed out many differences). Maybe being SF (who's main job is to teach others to raise merry Hell) his outlook was different from an Infantry Marine, but most of the Marines I know do not have a problem talking with civs about it either.

True I am very respectfull and choose my words carefully and never goad or pry.

A few times I have run into the attitude that only Soldiers/Marines should talk of such things, but usually these are from guys who never saw the elephant either and have had less street fights than myself.

It would be prudent to remind everyone that there is a tradition of civillians fighting. Ask the Britts about what the backwoods men did to them. At the time the Brittish Army was the best in the World, yet civillians, not playing the line up and follow the rules approach to fighting had a great effect on the Brittish war effort (True it took a standing Army to win the war.)
Andrew Jackson had no formal training, yet the battle of New Orleans was won by him, over the same men who would fight with Wellington and bring down Napolean.
Many civillians fought in the Indian wars and played a big part in the conquest of the United States.
Military History and tactics are a good resource of study for a martial artist. Flanking, envelopement, feighning, deception, the willingness to close and kill an enemy, the understanding that you usually are better off counter attacking into an ambush instead of backing up, the Mantra of Speed+Surprise+Violence of action = chaos! are very relevent to the serious student of combat, of anykind.

Now I am quick to add that the study of warfare and KNOWING warfare are not the same. (and it's one of the many reasons I tried to enlist into combat arms, to see and feel it for myself.)
Many of the service members who have performed so well in Afghanastan, Iraq and Somlia had no combat exp. untill they went to war.
It was the training, based on the study of war, along with other qualities that helped these people perform so well.
Just as if things go Thunderdome here one day and I have to protect my family or my country, then I will stand to and do what I must do.
It's a dying American tradition.
Thanks to all of those who serve, fight the fight, give all and show the lessons learned.
God bless.

 

[chinto]

ok, I have not had any experience of military personal saying if you were not military you had no right to ask or talk myself. there may be a few, but my experience was always that if they were willing to talk about combat experiences at all with any one, then it did not matter if they were military or civilian. as far as martial arts and unarmed combat, I do not see any difference between what I am taught and what many of the special operations forces are taught that train in traditional systems of martial arts. I have known a few, and they all said that all of the special operations people they knew took martial arts on their own time, as well as the training that they got from the military for unarmed combat.

as to talking about combat, in say Iraq or Afghanistan, or Vietnam or where ever, I would say ask the people who were there and what they saw and go from there. but I would take most every thing in the media about current combat arias with a huge truck load of salt if they say our people are some how ineffective or incompetent!!!
from what little I have been told by people who were there, they are doing a real job on the enemy and the media is NOT reporting any successes when they can avoid it.

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

I talk to people coming back from the M.E. a good deal and I dont believe half of the crud the media says.
A certian politicol party and it's cheerleaders in the media and acadimeia have created an impression of things that is largely untrue. It amazes me how the above peopel, who have access to history books distort thingsBut that is another story...

 

[Sanchin-J]

I will say that Military combat training in the sense of hand to hand is weak at best in the Army for the average soldier. You learn a few basic moves to utilize if your without a weapon but ultimately without in-depth training and constant training, that stuff really isn't very effective. You would do better to fix a bayonet and try and fight with what they teach you on the bayonet courses rather than use the hand to hand stuff heh. There are rumors that the Marines offer a far more extensive training period for hand to hand combat than the other branches, but I can't verify if that's true or not having never been in the Marines.

 

[Hand Sword]

Having many friends who are Marines, and have shown me MCMAP, I can say that I don't get the secret. The system is very good and logical, but nothing specail. There is nothing in it that any Martial Artist with experience wouldn't have seen already.

 

[jks9199]

Having many friends who are Marines, and have shown me MCMAP, I can say that I don't get the secret. The system is very good and logical, but nothing specail. There is nothing in it that any Martial Artist with experience wouldn't have seen already.

It's far from secret.

It was openly developed, there have been many articles about it, and they even filmed an episode of Human Weapon focusing on it at Quantico. I suspect that it's only a matter of time before there are classes and schools opened. You might already be able to simply purchase the training manuals through the Government Printing Office...

That said -- it's not meant, from what I've read and been told, to be anything new or super-special. Instead, it's based on solid basic martial arts from several sources, put together into a consistent instructional format focused on the needs of the USMC for hand-to-hand combatives, with a progressive developmental system designed to last an entire career.

 

[thardey]

I haven't run into any vets who won't talk about their experiences, or military history with me, a complete civvie. I also train with, and am friends with several people in the military, of quite a surprising range of ranks.

I could see, though, how a couple of them wouldn't want to talk to civvies if they'd run into the attitude of "Marines/Army/Navy/Air Force is the teh 133t! I'm the leader of my platoon in Halo, and we have LAN parties every other day. I can't wait to get into combat and kill some TANGO's!"

Or something like that (I've never played Halo, so I'm going off what I've heard). Maybe they just got burnt out on explaining that war was a lot of "hurry up and wait" and that a lot of our soldiers in the M.E. are there mostly as a "presence."

Or maybe (if they're the ones who have "never seen the elephant"), they're "true believers" of their particular martial art, and you don't have the right to talk about fighting, because you learned from a civvie, or whatnot. We see it all the time here between styles, MCMAP, is a style as well, one that people are asked to base their lives on. (As are we, but in a wholly different way.)

I guess there's nothing wrong with it, done respectfully (same with LEO's), but if someone doesn't want to share, that's his call. There are others who will.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Okay, I had a nice long well thought out post set to go and the stupid system timed out my login and wiped it as I submitted.

Retyping and using copy-paste this time as a backup...........

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Right.

On a related note, lately, with the Army having gone over to its MACP (Modern Army Combatives Program), and the Marine Corps with their MCMAP( Marine Corps Martial Arts Program), the "SEALS/S.C.A.R.S./TRS video parade" foolishness of the 1990's seems to have resurfaced in the martial arts community once again with the "ultimate" this and the "combat tested" that and the "fear no man on Earth" other thing.

And just as smoke follows fire and attorneys follow ambulances, just as this environment appears, it only takes about a matter of instantly before the military approach will have its supporters and detractors, either claiming that it is "superior" to any civilian system on the sole basis that "the military uses it", and the others from more conventional martial arts backgrounds who call it" not good enough" on the sole basis that it does not go into the same depth as do conventional arts.

Know what? They're both missing it.

Why?

Now the thing you need to remember about ANY form of military combatives, is this:

Their complexity/comprehensiveness, and the block of training time assigned to them, are going to reflect the governing service branch's percieved need for them in comparison with the other training which the soldier must undergo to be able to perform his/her job.

Now even in the case of military occupational specialties such as Intelligence or Sniper, where direct combat wouldn't be desirable but proximity to the enemy may require it by chance, or even in MOS's such as Military Police, Infantry or Special Ops, where real-life threats at bad-breath distance are an accepted and expected "occupational hazard", whatever H2H will be taught is gonna be competing for attention with the other skills they will need to do their job. Since, while H2H may save an individual soldier's life, it does not, by itself, win wars, it's not likely to be a top-tier priority.

So it really shouldn't come as a surprise that on a forum dedicated strictly *to* martial arts, military combatives may draw criticism on the grounds that they are limited in their "depth" or "comprehensiveness". After all, the statement has been made( and it is a statement with which I happen to agree) that the new combatives systems the Army and Marine Corps are putting out( and , within historical context, EVERY U.S. H2H manual I have dating back to the 1930's) are logical, and sound, and absolutely preferable to no training at all, but there's nothing in them that most members of the martial arts comunity "haven't seen before".

This is only to be expected--Military combatives aren't designed to be an all-encompassing "self protection/self perfection" sort of deal that a "classical" martial art can be, for the simple reason that time and training constraints do not allow it.

They exist so Jane and Joe Civilian from Nowhere, Indiana can pick something up in basic, and maybe later advanced training in their speciialty school, so that on the one time Mr. Murphy tags along with them on patrol and their weapon jams 3 feet from the enemy, they have an additional tool to survive, complete the mission and make it back home to Grab Butt, Idaho and spend the rest of their lives not getting shot at.

 

[Guardian]

As far as the combats themselves, most of the stuff taught in the military came from the civilian side of the house anyways, so it's pure B.S. for anyone in the military to even think that the two cannot be discussed in unison.

As far as the other portion of discussing combat and such, I've never had a problem and none of my friends/family have had a problem discussing it if someone asked about our experiences in the military. I won't advocate it, I won't go around saying I did this or that, that's not the way it's done in my view. I've had discussions with other Veterans of Vietnam and our current War who saw or have seen alot and like me they didn't volunteer information, but if asked they would relate what they saw, but that was one military member to another, sort of like a training conversation of what it would be like or is like, but if there were civilians around we would continued to speak about it, as to let them know it wasn't wine and roses over there and we were proud of what do.

I would say those military folks that take exception to being asked or take exception to such things, haven't learned a thing of what it's all about. It's about honor, integrity and loyalty to your fellow military members and the citizens of your country (which in-turn means your country) in my view.

JMHO

 

[still learning]

Hello, "When we did Basic training at Fort Cambell,KT....70's...self-defense classes was very little.

The thing here is...soldiers need to learn self-defense with full gear on (combat ready gear when on patrols) because training with gear on and challenge hand to hand in actual combat will be different, with uniforms on or gi's.

Even us. who use Gi's at every class? ...fighting with street clothes on or with dress, or suits or heavy jackets? ....the fighting back will be different! ever rip your pants?

We all must tailor the art to means at hand! ....if one was in Irag? ...I'm sure martial arts training would take on a different meaning than if you was NOT in a war?

Aloha

 

[chinto]

the military I have known that fought in either WWII or Korea or Vietnam or the gulf have all been some what reluctant to talk to any one about it... but once they trust you and if they are willing to talk its mainly they were scared a lot.. and did what had to be done.. as far as unarmed combat training, well the military stuff was minimal, they got more on the bayonet course then then any unarmed combat training in general.
the special operations people all said they took martial arts on their own time because the military hand to hand training was very inadequate.
The one exception was a veteran of the 1st special service force..in WWII and they got some of the same kind of training that the OSS and SOE got. much much more intensive and extensive then other troops of the time.
so as far as unarmed and other then bayonet and pistol and rifle and other modern weapons they went to a dojo and learned there. .. the big thing is if they do not want to talk or think about it, respect that and do not push.

 

[kailat]

Good Day ladies and Gents;

I cannot speak on behalf of the Marines, The Navy, or the Airforce. Having served in the United States Army from 1990-1998. Having also participated in 2 tours, Bosnia, Syria, and having done several other peacekeeping duties while serving out my obligation to the Armed Forces. With all that being said, when it comes to Martial Arts or H2H combat etc.. It was all based off of the very basic and generic forms of JUDO that was privy to the WWII era. I tell you this, it was such B.S. I actually got in trouble during our H2H training and pugil fights for mocking its inefficiencies. Of course I was a young kid from 17yrs old. It was later after Basic-AIT that I with a smaller group of individuals done our own training on the bases I was at.

There are many things about the Military standpoint back in that time period that really stood out to me, It was really Karate and or Boxing oriented. Of course this was really prior to the MMA craze! Im certain today the MMA thing has really taken over and its probably good thing it did. I know from some of my NG buddies that they are fighting in the MMA local cage fights.

But as little as 10+yrs ago all that was unheard of. The most we really got to explore was boxing, and kickboxing. Which was way better than the most of the things we were doing back then.

Several of us used to attend seminars off base when we were near a city that had something going on.

But to those that never had the opportunity to serve it is great they have some awesome input and insight within helping out the Soldiers of the Armed forces. U know I should try to one day see if I could help pass on some training to those in the NAT. Guard.... I've taught to many law enforcement officials etc.. just really not sure how to get involved in the Military sector of it all..

Its great though..

 

[chinto]

Good Day ladies and Gents;

I cannot speak on behalf of the Marines, The Navy, or the Airforce. Having served in the United States Army from 1990-1998. Having also participated in 2 tours, Bosnia, Syria, and having done several other peacekeeping duties while serving out my obligation to the Armed Forces. With all that being said, when it comes to Martial Arts or H2H combat etc.. It was all based off of the very basic and generic forms of JUDO that was privy to the WWII era. I tell you this, it was such B.S. I actually got in trouble during our H2H training and pugil fights for mocking its inefficiencies. Of course I was a young kid from 17yrs old. It was later after Basic-AIT that I with a smaller group of individuals done our own training on the bases I was at.

There are many things about the Military standpoint back in that time period that really stood out to me, It was really Karate and or Boxing oriented. Of course this was really prior to the MMA craze! Im certain today the MMA thing has really taken over and its probably good thing it did. I know from some of my NG buddies that they are fighting in the MMA local cage fights.

But as little as 10+yrs ago all that was unheard of. The most we really got to explore was boxing, and kickboxing. Which was way better than the most of the things we were doing back then.

Several of us used to attend seminars off base when we were near a city that had something going on.

But to those that never had the opportunity to serve it is great they have some awesome input and insight within helping out the Soldiers of the Armed forces. U know I should try to one day see if I could help pass on some training to those in the NAT. Guard.... I've taught to many law enforcement officials etc.. just really not sure how to get involved in the Military sector of it all..

Its great though..

yep I have been told that some units like the rangers have added some BJJ to their training for hand to hand ... but the ranger I know said most of them study things like karate or kung fu or samurai jujitsu and or one of the fma off base. most of it is still from what he said the old Applegate and jujitsu based stuff with some karate and boxing techniques in it. .. and not really a large amount of that till he got to ranger school. I am not in the army so going by what I was told... but like he said, they really do not have time to train you well unarmed or with blades and sticks when they have to train you with your rifle and other weapons.. so they figure if you are down to a bayonet or bare hands your in real trouble.