Taijutsu video I thought was great

[kaizasosei]

Reminds me of Go or igo. A game that is very much like ma.

 

[CDKJudoka]

Well firstly, let me assure you I am no troll, secondly, when you say you can throw this person twice your weight, are you refering to during randori or simply with him as your uke?

I did randori with a 98 lbs female black belt. At the time I was 225, and stand 6'3" tall. She had no problem tossing me around like the proverbial rag doll. As everyone has stated , techniques performed correctly do require that much strength.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I believe Hatsumi once said that the amount of effort one should use to perform a technique should not exceed that of opening a door. I find I have to agree. The more skilled one's taijutsu is the less muscle he has to use.

 

[emiliozapata]

he snuck up behind me in class and put me in a full nelson to see what I would do/ if could effectivly use a technique I had learned without being told to.

So he gave you your irimi and your leverage and pivot point. IN real grappling these are the two things hardest to achieve on a resisting opponent.

those who think the best judokas aren't in top physical condition have no idea. Have those of you ever seen olympic caliber judoka grip fight? Nothing "gentle" about it.

That being said, I still think the first video I posted was some of the nicest taijiutsu I have seen. The rest is aikido and aikijiujitsu basically, renamed and packaged as ninjutsu taijutsu imho. I have watched as bujinkan techniques eveolved over the years to become more and more "soft". Back in the day, I even remember when Tanemura first started advertising in Black Belt Magazine. "Samurai JiuJutsu" is what he was peddling then.

His new thing now is Koryu Karate, simple translation as Old School Karate. Hmmmmm?

 

[emiliozapata]

My taijutsu instructor is half my size (height and possibly weight). He controls me almost effortlessly. The more I resist, the worse it is for me. There's no muscling him around. I'm guessing he's doign it wrong too.

On a more serious note, there is no denying that strength and power give one an edge in combat. However, in my experience...effective SD, combat...whatever...starts with good, crisp technique. Strength and power come later. If one has to sacrifice technique in order to utilize strength, then they're doing it wrong. Strength should enhace, but should not replace technique...this holds treu for all martial arts...not just taijutsu. Look at Helio Gracie...he regularly was able to dominate larger, stronger, skilled opponents with superior skill and technique.

Peace,
Erik

Erik, I trained with an aikido guy for a time on an informal basis, he could control me effortlessly as well with my resistance increasing the pain, only once I let him get his control, especially 2nd and 3rd control stuff. Once we did some true randori, he never could do it.

Helio was a great tactician for sure, but a larger stronger judoka rag dolled him. Royce was great as well, but look at how bad Hughes destroyed him. When skill and technique are equal , size and power are the deciding factor. Those who refute this just don't want to put in the work. Again, you learn more about yourself and your warrior spirit when you test yourself physically and mentally, exactly as did the ninja originators, the Shugenja.

 

[Cryozombie]

So he gave you your irimi and your leverage and pivot point. IN real grappling these are the two things hardest to achieve on a resisting opponent.

those who think the best judokas aren't in top physical condition have no idea. Have those of you ever seen olympic caliber judoka grip fight? Nothing "gentle" about it.

That being said, I still think the first video I posted was some of the nicest taijiutsu I have seen. The rest is aikido and aikijiujitsu basically, renamed and packaged as ninjutsu taijutsu imho. I have watched as bujinkan techniques eveolved over the years to become more and more "soft". Back in the day, I even remember when Tanemura first started advertising in Black Belt Magazine. "Samurai JiuJutsu" is what he was peddling then.

His new thing now is Koryu Karate, simple translation as Old School Karate. Hmmmmm?

Ok, you are a liar, plain and simple. You come on here, claim almost no background, a "little of this" and "some of that" but you have extensive knowlage, including use of Irimi, Judo, have watched the progression of the Bujinkan, know Tanmura's background... can Identify Aikido and Aikijujitsu by veiwing a single video clip.

You, sir, are FULL OF ****.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I have watched as bujinkan techniques eveolved over the years to become more and more "soft". Back in the day, I even remember when Tanemura first started advertising in Black Belt Magazine. "Samurai JiuJutsu" is what he was peddling then.

I don't think they are more soft I think Hatsumi teaches in a different manner.

Shoto Tanemura has Sokeship of several Jujutsu ryuha as well.

The Jujutsu part of the Genbukan differs from the Ninpo part but there are some similarites.

Shoto Tanemura Koryu Karate is a mix of his Dakenjutsu. Shoto Tanemura teacher Sato Kimbei learned Chinese arts as well So Shoto Tanemura has a wealth of knowledge including Menkyo in Daito ryu Aikijujutsu.

exactly as did the ninja originators, the Shugenja.

The Shugenja were not the orginators of Ninjutsu.

 

[emiliozapata]

here is some of the best ninjutsu training I have seen to date

 

[shesulsa]

Good for you.

 

[emiliozapata]

Ok, you are a liar, plain and simple. You come on here, claim almost no background, a "little of this" and "some of that" but you have extensive knowlage, including use of Irimi, Judo, have watched the progression of the Bujinkan, know Tanmura's background... can Identify Aikido and Aikijujitsu by veiwing a single video clip.

You, sir, are FULL OF ****.

Wow, I never said "a little of this...etc..", I stated my background via belt ranks which is what every poster was after, then stated that I have dabbled, and you should know I said I have loved the MA for a long time and immersed myself whenever I could.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

You know, Cryo, I feel that our young friend Emilio really doesn't have much background other than that stated... just a head full of words not understood, and a belief that reading and watching equals knowledge, ability and experience.

The term Irimi means "to enter against the body", and is primarily an Aikido term. Saying that someone "gave you your irimi" is to misunderstand the term, as Irimi is an action on your part, rather than a simple positioning as Emilio infers. So thats one down.

Then we get "In real grappling..." Now, here, Emilio has a little experience, in fact, if we are to believe his claims, the little true experience he has is in grappling systems (some Judo and a little BJJ, if memory serves), so I can allow a little room here. But he's hardly seasoned, and again, he is comparing sport systems to non-sporting systems. Not really showing understanding here either.

Olympic Judo competitors not being gentle... sure, I can go with that. But this is a sporting system, where the athletes are mostly competing against other athletes of similar size, weight, ability, experience etc, so power in such a controlled and restricted situation means it can be focused on to a much greater degree. As established, Emilio's background is primarily in sport-based grappling systems, so his emphasis on sport-style conditioning and strength makes a bit of sense. The problem is that that will tip the scales in two evenly matched persons, and non-sporting systems (which Emilio has NO experience in) simply won't assume that the
opponent(s) will be an even match... if they were, they probably wouldn't attack! So here, he's looking at the wrong thing.

The first video being the best... well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, beauty is truth etc, so if he thinks it's the best, that must be true, right? Seriously, there's not much point arguing the pros and cons of one video versus another, as it gets very subjective. However, the claim that everything else presented to him is "Aikido or Aikijujutsu [corrected your spelling, there, Emilio...] basically, renamed and packaged as ninjutsu taijutsu imho" simply shows a complete lack of recognition of Ninjutsu as taught today, as well as a desperate gap in his knowledge of Japanese Arts.

Now we come to the crux of the matter: "I have watched as bujinkan techniques eveolved over the years to become more and more "soft". Back in the day, I even remember when Tanemura first started advertising in Black Belt Magazine. "Samurai Jujutsu" [once again, corrected your spelling] is what he was peddling then. His new thing now is Koryu Karate, simple translation as Old School Karate. Hmmmmm?"

So you've been in the dojo's from the late 70's watching as the practitioners matured, as Hatsumi Sensei, Tanemura Sensei, Manaka Sensei, the Japanese Shihan, the senior instructors around the world matured as well? And, after not actually watching Tanemura's videos (you would understand about he spelling if you had...), you have decided you know how the art has changed, and beyond that, you know why the teaching and training of the art changed? That, I'm afraid, is a bit hard to swallow. I will once again quote myself from another thread here, hopefully that may give another possible reason. "In Japanese Arts, there is an approach to the development of the practitioner; as you progress, you travel through the stages Shu, Ha, Ri. Essentially, Shu is the beginning stage, and at this point, everything is done in a strict, formal method. The form is followed exactly, with no variation. Ha allows some freedom to the structure, but the same form is still used. By the time you reach Ri, you are free to express yourself through the particular medium, changing the structure and form as your understanding/absorption of the feelings and concepts change. At this point, there is no real structure left to the original form, and it becomes a true artistic expression, changing each time."

And, as for the Genbukan and what Tanemura Sensei is "peddling" (a somewhat offensive term, I might say), the Genbukan itself, these days, is the Ninpo Taijutsu portion of the Organisations Tanemura Sensei heads, as well as being the oldest. The Jujutsu portion is known as the Kokusei Ju Jutsu Renmei, or World Jujutsu Federation, the KJJR. This is the section that the videos you allude to were filmed for, the advanced even going so far as to give specific examples from various Jujutsu Ryuha. There is now a section refered to as Koryu Karate, which, as stated, is primarily composed of old Dakentaijutsu systems, which Tanemura believes is a major precursor to modern Karate. There is also a section on Amatsu Tatara, although this is not open to the majority of people. So you have simply shown that, although you have been watching Ninjutsu organisations for many years, you haven't really paid attention to what is there.

I really have to visit this too: "exactly as did the ninja originators, the Shugenja." Take heed of the words of Jade Cloud. You have taken the works of Stephen Hayes as a be-all end-all (although, as demonstrated, you managed to miss the point of those as well), while not paying any attention to the fact that Hayes himself said that his research there did not mean that the Shugenja were the originators of Ninjutsu, simply that they may have been an influence of a few of the schools. The Togakure Ryu origin story mentions the possibility of Daisuke Nishina (Daisuke Togakure) being trained at some point by the Shugenja on Togakure Yama, but he was also exposed to the teachings of Hakuun Ryu Ninjutsu, and was trained as a Samurai before all of this. Taking one word out of a story doesn't give you the full picture.

Essentially, you have shown that you have access to the information, even to the point that you have most likely deliberately sought them out. This you have done based on a childhood fantasy of what your childs brain wanted to imagine Ninjutsu and Ninja to be. Then, in your journey, you have encountered a number of truths which did not fit your beliefs about Ninjutsu and Ninja. So, you were left with two choices: Accept that you were working without full knowledge of the subject, and integrate the new ideas into your understanding of the subject, coming ever closer to the reality of the situation, and in fact discovering that the reality can be even greater than your childhood daydreams simply by being real and achievable; or, shut your eyes, block your ears, scream loudly that you know best, and hope to drown out those who challenge your fantasies.

In the end, you are currently operating with the emotional and intellectual maturity of a 5 year old where the Martial Arts are concerned, because that is where you have chosen to keep yourself. And that is not necessarily a bad, or unusual thing. Unless you are teaching others (even your own kids). So, please, for your sake, for the sake of your kids, and for the sanity of all those here, either grow up, recognise that you have no place talking with any authority on these subjects,and we will be more than happy to help you learn, or keep your childhood fantasies to yourself along with your wish to fly and have super-strength where they belong.

 

[Chris Parker]

Sorry for the length on that last one... I thought I was done with this topic.

 

[jks9199]

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[emiliozapata]

Chris Parker , I know what you think of me, I am curious what your take on the AKBAN video I posted is.

 

[Raynac]

So he gave you your irimi and your leverage and pivot point. IN real grappling these are the two things hardest to achieve on a resisting opponent.

Hi,


The term Irimi means "to enter against the body", and is primarily an Aikido term. Saying that someone "gave you your irimi" is to misunderstand the term, as Irimi is an action on your part, rather than a simple positioning as Emilio infers. So thats one down.

Even with what chris said im still not sure what an irimi means... so if i say im not sure if he gave me one or not,your going to have to humor me. all i know is he put me in a full nelson that had me suspended off the ground, while when i had practiced the move i had always been solidly on the ground. I had no leverage or piviot point at that moment and it wasn't until i broke his grip (using a techinque on his fingers) and managed to get my feet on the ground that i could actually manage to BARELY pull off the technique because as you said its hard to do against a resisting opponent.

also comparing me to an olypic level judoka while im still a yellowbelt ninjutsu user who has been learning for about 4-5 months isn't really the most fair comparison

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Emilio,

The ABKAN video you posted as "some of the best NINJUTSU training" you had seen doesn't really impress me as such. The main reason is that I feel the aspects you gravitate towards are not ninjutsu training. The free-form sparring (randori) is primarily BJJ (for the ground work), and karate/tae kwon do/kickboxing in the stand up. There is a prevalence of Mawashi Geri (roundhouse kicks) and other karate-style actions, but no ninjutsu in those sequences. And to be sure, the mawashi geri was introduced into karate in the 1930's by Gichin Funakoshi's son, and was never a part of any traditional Japanese martial art. If you doubt this, try it in Yoroi...

The Ninjutsu parts of the video were not too badly done, but nothing spectacular. I just worry about the students training one system for the traditional aspect, then completely discarding it for their free-form sparring. It shows to me a lack of confidence in the system they are learning, and a lack of willingness to pressure test it properly to make sure they can use it effectively.

As for yourself, Emilio, I simply feel that you are better suited (from a personality level) to competitive grappling systems, as this is what you appreciate, and have some experience in. If you simply said "I have experience in these arts, and am forming my own expression of grappling/combative sports based on what works for me on a personal level", and left Ninjutsu out of it, you would recieve much more respect and encouragement from myself, and I warrant, many others here. And it would be reasonably legitimate. The only thing people could say is ot question if you have enough experience, and that can only be discovered from personal interaction with you.

Raynac, Irimi is, as I said, entering against a body. It is primarily an Aikido term, and is used as a concept to give students a way to understand the methods Aikido employs to harmonise with an attackers energy. It is not a static position, but rather a movement and timing principle. Unfortunately, the only way to really experience this concept is from an experienced instructor, same as any martial art skill. And, of course, I would recommend an Aikido instructor over others. If you have any friends who practice Aikido, why not get together and see what you can learn from each other? After all, even the great Miyamoto Musashi was said to have consulted with Hyogonosuke Yagyu when creating the concepts of Niten Ichi Ryu (and Yagyu created a series of anti-Nito techniques known as Nito Yaburi from the same meetings).

 

[bluekey88]

Erik, I trained with an aikido guy for a time on an informal basis, he could control me effortlessly as well with my resistance increasing the pain, only once I let him get his control, especially 2nd and 3rd control stuff. Once we did some true randori, he never could do it.

Helio was a great tactician for sure, but a larger stronger judoka rag dolled him. Royce was great as well, but look at how bad Hughes destroyed him. When skill and technique are equal , size and power are the deciding factor. Those who refute this just don't want to put in the work. Again, you learn more about yourself and your warrior spirit when you test yourself physically and mentally, exactly as did the ninja originators, the Shugenja.

I'll give you the point that when skill and technique are equal, then sizwe and power win out...however, in my experience...skill and technqiue are rarely equal. I'm a big strong guy. I can muscle through quite a bit....but when that fails, what do I have to fall back on?

really, it's the flip side of what your are saying which is...when technique fails? You better have power on your side.

To me, developing physical power, while not an easy thing to do...can be developed much faster than than skill and technique. Thus, I spend more time working my tehcnique than i do building my muscles. I practice my technique such that i don;t have to "force" it...power then becomes my backup.

Why do I not train the other way? Simple...I'm a big guy...but not the biggest. There are lots of bigger, meaner, more powerful, more aggressive guys out there. No matter how much I lift, sweat, and push myself...I will not be as big, poerful, mean and aggressi ve as they are. In that case, my equalizer becomes technqiue. And it hetter be damn sound technique if I hope to come out alive froma confrontation with one of these guys should they wish to end me.

I'm not saying neglect power...but don't rely on it.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Aiki Lee]

AKBAN doesn't seem like a bad organization to train in. I'm sure they can build pretty tough guys, but I'm not blown away by what I see there. I'm much more impressed with the things I see my teachers do, but that may just be personal bias.

Nahhhh... who am I kidding I"M NEVER BIASED! Everything I say is objectively true! Always!

 

[emiliozapata]

The term Irimi means "to enter against the body", and is primarily an Aikido term. Saying that someone "gave you your irimi" is to misunderstand the term, as Irimi is an action on your part, rather than a simple positioning as Emilio infers. So thats one down.

Actually irimi simply means "to enter" or "an entering movement" aikidoists try to conceptualiaze it into something more esoteric, Judo has used the concept from the beginning, ever heard of irimi nage, or irimi tsuki, these are judo throws right from the kodokan curriculum, so in most judo throws in which you will use your body to pivot point the opponent you must enter into them, which is half the battle in getting superior grips, therefore I argue that my use of the term is appropriate.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Actually irimi simply means "to enter" or "an entering movement"

But it is more in the lines of entering the opponents space.

I have seen Irimi defination as blending. So IMO and (I am not an Aikidoka so any Aikidoka feel free to correct) Is the entering/blending of the opponent/or opponents space.

aikidoists try to conceptualiaze it into something more esoteric, Judo has used the concept from the beginning, ever heard of irimi nage, or irimi tsuki

I don'y see it listed in the Kodokan list of techniques. If we look at Irimi nage as used by Aikido which shows the blending we can see that in Judo it would not work with the principle because Judo uses more Tsukuri(fitting in) as in pivoting to upset the balance where Aikido I think uses misdirection to uproot the balance.

I don't think it is an absolutes because I am sure Judo uses misdirection and Aikido uses Tsukuri as well but I think the empahisis of misdirection or breaking balance by means of circle is Aikido where Judo is more breaking balance by straight direction uprooting.

so in most judo throws in which you will use your body to pivot point the opponent you must enter into them

I think Tsukuri fits better. As one person put "Tsukuri is the part of the throw practiced repeatly in Uchikomi."