Tai Chi Self Defence

[Xue Sheng]

My sifu tends towards various types of push hands
Fixed 1 hand
Fixed 2 hand
Fixed with application (closer or free style)
3 Step
4 Corner
1 step (this is app after app after app and the app depends on where the force is going)
Moving fixed pattern
Moving Free style

and there are various other moving training methodes that have more ot do with stick and follow that anything else

But sadly no one wants to do most of these and they tend to stop at 2 hand fix step and ocassionally do 3 step and 4 corner but people these days simply do not want the apps or martisl aspect of it. Heck, the last time he taught the 2 person set he never finished because the majority were complaining it made their legs hurt.

 

[Makalakumu]

I actually think he's refering to the Yang Sanshou, 2 person form. Here's an old video of my teacher's teacher, Master Tchoung Ta Tchen (in the black coat) doing it:

You speed it up over time and eventually start improvising. Although, I would never call it a 'dance'.

That is pretty much what it looked like. I'm sure TT Liang added in some different moves. Anyway, we actually did it to music and used the beats to control our speed. Master Liang was famous making it a dance.

 

[Xue Sheng]

we actually did it to music and used the beats to control our speed. Master Liang was famous making it a dance.

Please excuse this but this is just adding to my frustration of the state of Taijiquan today so......

:hb:

 

[mograph]

Don't get him started!

 

[oaktree]

Please excuse this but this is just adding to my frustration of the state of Taijiquan today so......

:hb:

What if it was like this type of music?

 

[rickster]

Is thinking of taking up Tai Chi with a view to learning it as a martial art and dumb and wasted idea?

Perhaps it would be a good idea to post something about a teacher near you.

That way people here can help you determine if it will suit yor needs

 

[Xue Sheng]

What if it was like this type of music?

Nope, not even that or this

for taiji..... music, any music is, IMO, going a long way towards ruining Taijiquan

My Xingyiquan sifu, who also does the William CC Chen version of Taijiquan, said much the same about music as he did breathing, Breathing he said if he sees you are exhaling when you apply power or strike....he will hit you right after you exhale. If he sees you working rhythmically like you are dancing.... he will hit you on the offbeat.

Well.... OK this if it where Police Military Sanda/Sanshou

But ONLY for hitting trees.....Never trust a tree :EG:

 

[pete]

There's nothing wrong with practicing your form while enjoying music, just as there is nothing wrong with practicing your form while breathing! The key word is 'while', and not trying to connect the patterns of energy within the form to either the rhythm of the sounds or the breath, but enjoying the awareness of each in supporting and complementing the experience as a whole.

 

[Xue Sheng]

To each his own…

There is nothing wrong with doing Taijiquan and listening to music but… In my opinion and that is all it is my opinion it depends on why you are doing it and what you want to get out of it.

If you are training Taijiquan forms and enjoying music... you are not focusing properly on training on Taijiquan.

If you are training Taijiquan forms and focusing on whether or not you left the coffee pot on… yyou are not focusing properly on training on Taijiquan.

If you are training Taijiquan forms and thinking about what happened at work today… you are not focusing properly on training on Taijiquan.

Basically, in my opinion, you are distracted while training

But like I said, to each his own... and it depends on why you are doing taijijquan... and this is only my opinion... your mileage may vary

 

[mograph]

I guess the question is: does listening to music increase or reduce the effectiveness of the training?

If the training requires concentration, to me, concentration is aided by the removal of distractions. If silence drove me nuts because of my own internal distractions ("monkey mind"), then music could help me remove those internal distractions, leaving only the external distraction of music (it would be better than silence in that case). Also, NLP practitioners prefer Baroque music to induce an Alpha state, conducive to learning, but that may be best used to prepare the mind for learning -- not to be used during learning.

I can also see the music's interfering with the process of physical introspection and task/concept learning, as we tend to have finite cognitive resources, and some of those would be taken up by the music's requesting our attention.

Personally, I only use soft slow music when I want to relax, and tango music (Yo-Yo Ma's Libertango) when i want to get my chi up a bit (no, I don't change my tempo to match the music). But if I want to train, to learn or ingrain a new skill, I do it in silence so I can pay attention to the subtle stuff (hopefully) going on inside.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think people might be misunderstanding how music is used with the Two Person dance that we performed. It actually doesn't matter what kind of music you use. The beat is what matters. According to T.T. Liang, when he learned this training method, his sifu would use a drum to indicate when students would move on to the next pose. Eventually, a training session encompassed a steady drum beat that set the pace of the drill according to the student's skill level. As the student progressed, the faster the beat got.

T.T. Liang was also a famous dancer in China and he decided to use the same training method but use musical beats instead. He picked songs that students could practice with according to their ability level. As you got better, you practiced faster and faster. The "dance" aspect was only used as a metaphor later in order to help students relax. The total Two Person "dance" has over 180 moves in it. Imagine doing that in under a minute!

I experienced a lot of positive benefits from this. I eventually stopped thinking about the moves and reacted instinctively. People could improvise an attack from a different place in the set and I could pick up the attack with the defense from that section of the set. Eventually, the music goes away and you just find the beat. When I thought about it like a dance and not a fight, I could relax and have fun. Two Person Dance days were very popular at my teacher's studio! There was lots of laughter and the time flew by way too quickly.

 

[Xue Sheng]

A very wierd IE 9 thing as it applies to MT just happned so ignore this post...basically it blew up and posted twice all at the same time

Just move along, nothing to see here

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think people might be misunderstanding how music is used with the Two Person dance that we performed. It actually doesn't matter what kind of music you use. The beat is what matters. According to T.T. Liang, when he learned this training method, his sifu would use a drum to indicate when students would move on to the next pose. Eventually, a training session encompassed a steady drum beat that set the pace of the drill according to the student's skill level. As the student progressed, the faster the beat got.

T.T. Liang was also a famous dancer in China and he decided to use the same training method but use musical beats instead. He picked songs that students could practice with according to their ability level. As you got better, you practiced faster and faster. The "dance" aspect was only used as a metaphor later in order to help students relax. The total Two Person "dance" has over 180 moves in it. Imagine doing that in under a minute!

I experienced a lot of positive benefits from this. I eventually stopped thinking about the moves and reacted instinctively. People could improvise an attack from a different place in the set and I could pick up the attack with the defense from that section of the set. Eventually, the music goes away and you just find the beat. When I thought about it like a dance and not a fight, I could relax and have fun. Two Person Dance days were very popular at my teacher's studio! There was lots of laughter and the time flew by way too quickly.

I don't think there is misunderstanding, I just don't agree with it. And there was no drum beat involved in how my sifu learned or trained Taijiquan and it is the "beat" that I have issue with. You do everything in a rhythm and as my Xingyi sifu said, if I see you are following a rhythm...I will hit you on the offbeat... which will throw off your rhythm and then what…

Train any way that you like and enjoy, it is just that I don’t agree with it if you are training for martial purposes... but then what I think does not really matter anyway if you enjoy it keep doing it.

 

[pete]

To each his own…

There is nothing wrong with doing Taijiquan and listening to music but… In my opinion and that is all it is my opinion it depends on why you are doing it and what you want to get out of it.

If you are training Taijiquan forms and enjoying music... you are not focusing properly on training on Taijiquan.

If you are training Taijiquan forms and focusing on whether or not you left the coffee pot on… yyou are not focusing properly on training on Taijiquan.

If you are training Taijiquan forms and thinking about what happened at work today… you are not focusing properly on training on Taijiquan.

Basically, in my opinion, you are distracted while training

But like I said, to each his own... and it depends on why you are doing taijijquan... and this is only my opinion... your mileage may vary

Actually, these 'distractions' are necessary realities that must be present within your training regimen. The ability to accept the fact that you brewed coffee or had problems at work earlier in the day, and put them aside to as irrelevant to the present moment is an important aspect of developing what is know in tai chi as 'calm awareness.' To ignore these things as if the do not exist is not the same, that would be pure fantasy. To vary the environs of your practice is a step towards internalizing the art, and having it be inseparable from your everyday life. So music some days, silence other days, inside vs outdoors, etc. Especially if you are training for martial intent... You won't always have the luxury of eliminating external 'distractions' to go into 'tai chi mode'.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Actually, these 'distractions' are necessary realities that must be present within your training regimen. The ability to accept the fact that you brewed coffee or had problems at work earlier in the day, and put them aside to as irrelevant to the present moment is an important aspect of developing what is know in tai chi as 'calm awareness.' To ignore these things as if the do not exist is not the same, that would be pure fantasy. To vary the environs of your practice is a step towards internalizing the art, and having it be inseparable from your everyday life. So music some days, silence other days, inside vs outdoors, etc. Especially if you are training for martial intent... You won't always have the luxury of eliminating external 'distractions' to go into 'tai chi mode'.

True, but training the form is not training reality is it, it is focusing on proper form and if any other focus it is used on the possibility of an opponant. Tuishou, push hands, two person forms and various other things are used to deal with distractions.

But regardless... do what you feel is best and I will do the same... it is not worth discussing or arguing further because history has shown we mostly do not agree.

enjoy the training

 

[pete]

uhh, if training the form is not training reality, then why bother? Qigong, Form, Push Hands, Sparring... they all develop the same skills in different scenarios. It is not as if there are separate concepts and principles for one vs the other. Yes, the push hands and sparring will extend the challenge of those same internal principles to consider another person's intention, but that does not mean that the skills learned during solo practices of qigong and form are tossed aside. Instead, each of these practices will test the reality of your training and the reality of your skill. Just as qigong will strengthen the form, so will push hands and sparring... which will in turn circle back to improve your qigong.

if you feel this is not worth further discussion, no reply is necessary. However, others on the board may choose otherwise.

 

[Xue Sheng]

DI did not say it was not worth discussing... I meant it was not worth us discussing or arguing further because history has shown we mostly do not agree. And I only respond because your post were directed at my posts but I shall stop after this to keep it civil and stay within MT rules

Others may choose to reply that is fine but for us to continue would only derail Makalakumu's topic.

Enjoy the training and have a nice day

 

[mograph]

... but for us to continue would only derail Makalakumu's topic.

Y'know, the early posts in this thread seemed to answer the OP's question pretty well, but to advance the discussion, it would be interesting to hear more examples of the use of taijiquan in self-defence.

 

[pete]

Is thinking of taking up Tai Chi with a view to learning it as a martial art and dumb and wasted idea?

Direct Answer: NO... Tai Chi is very effective as a means for self defense, but only when using it as the internal art that it is, and not trying to make it something it is not. Basically, by maintaining your composure and awareness you will learn to be patient, allow your opponent to commit to there intention first, but be ready to intercept, surprise and counter that attack. Rather than anticipate, we wait. Rather than tense up, we relax. Rather than freeze, we energize ourselves. Rather that focus, we maintain calm awareness. In other styles, much of the practice is dedicated to what we will do to others (externally), such that punches are trained in repetitions to continuously increase the power and devastation that it may cause... where in tai chi we abide by principles such as 'no excess, no deficiency', so while the strike must be skillful and accurate and delivered from the correct angle and positioning, it need not be any more powerful than it has to be. Therefore, much training is devoted to what we do with ourselves (internally) to maintain calm awareness, center the breath, develop balance, and be in-the-moment to avoid anticipating what you think may happen and instead wait for the opponents defect... and counter through skills such as timing and positioning. Tai chi being continuous, trains you to understand that not every counter is going to be enough to bring you to safety, so again by using the principles of tai chi, we do not stop until there is an opportunity for escape to safety. That requires you to stay in-the-moment and maintain calm awareness before/during/after the physical altercation.

That doesn't just happen, it require training and practice applying the internal principles through the art at different levels and scenarios. Qigong develops the physical and energetic bodies through simple repetitive movements withing a single energy pattern; the Form (whichever style you choose) challenges you to adapt and challenge the energy patterns learned in qigong to a more dynamic practice changing, combining and blending the energy patterns; Pushing Hands further challenges you to maintain your posture and composure while engaged with another external entity, thereby not only protecting your center, but also by working your energy patterns with and against that of your partner; Sparring moves it up another notch, first by adding additional fear of getting hit (and for some the fear of hitting others). Additionally, sparring detaches you physically from your opponent, so as opposed to pushing hands, you must rely solely on your energetic and emotional bodies to remain connected until contact is made.

Now some folks will say, tai chi as a martial art is dead, or nobody teaches this anymore, or its been taken over by new age hipsters and turned into some sort of bad yoga dance. I say the Truth is Out There, but like anything else that has value, it will take time and money and EFFORT on your part if you want to find it and actually train tai chi for self defense.

Peace & Tao,
Pete

 

[rickster]

Direct Answer: NO... Tai Chi is very effective as a means for self defense, but only when using it as the internal art that it is, and not trying to make it something it is not. Basically, by maintaining your composure and awareness you will learn to be patient, allow your opponent to commit to there intention first, but be ready to intercept, surprise and counter that attack. Rather than anticipate, we wait. Rather than tense up, we relax. Rather than freeze, we energize ourselves. Rather that focus, we maintain calm awareness. In other styles, much of the practice is dedicated to what we will do to others (externally), such that punches are trained in repetitions to continuously increase the power and devastation that it may cause... where in tai chi we abide by principles such as 'no excess, no deficiency', so while the strike must be skillful and accurate and delivered from the correct angle and positioning, it need not be any more powerful than it has to be. Therefore, much training is devoted to what we do with ourselves (internally) to maintain calm awareness, center the breath, develop balance, and be in-the-moment to avoid anticipating what you think may happen and instead wait for the opponents defect... and counter through skills such as timing and positioning. Tai chi being continuous, trains you to understand that not every counter is going to be enough to bring you to safety, so again by using the principles of tai chi, we do not stop until there is an opportunity for escape to safety. That requires you to stay in-the-moment and maintain calm awareness before/during/after the physical altercation.

That doesn't just happen, it require training and practice applying the internal principles through the art at different levels and scenarios. Qigong develops the physical and energetic bodies through simple repetitive movements withing a single energy pattern; the Form (whichever style you choose) challenges you to adapt and challenge the energy patterns learned in qigong to a more dynamic practice changing, combining and blending the energy patterns; Pushing Hands further challenges you to maintain your posture and composure while engaged with another external entity, thereby not only protecting your center, but also by working your energy patterns with and against that of your partner; Sparring moves it up another notch, first by adding additional fear of getting hit (and for some the fear of hitting others). Additionally, sparring detaches you physically from your opponent, so as opposed to pushing hands, you must rely solely on your energetic and emotional bodies to remain connected until contact is made.

Now some folks will say, tai chi as a martial art is dead, or nobody teaches this anymore, or its been taken over by new age hipsters and turned into some sort of bad yoga dance. I say the Truth is Out There, but like anything else that has value, it will take time and money and EFFORT on your part if you want to find it and actually train tai chi for self defense.

Peace & Tao,
Pete

We have to distinguish between Tai Chi, and Tai Chi Quan