Taekkyeon-Yetbub is not a fake invention but a real Sibak culture

Discussion in 'Korean Martial Arts - General' started by Steven Lee, Jan 22, 2019.

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  1. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    Taekkyeon is a wrestling with kicking in soft-contact. Even 1920's reputable newspaper recorded water-Taekkyeon is done by throwing the opponent.

    https://i.imgur.com/dKf5yB5.jpg

    Even today, Taekkyeon game is done by throwing opponent as well as kicking. Taekkyeon-Yetbub is a full contact street fighting game which hits with any body part including punching. Taekwondo is a mix of Chosun(Korean)-Gwonbeop (started 300 years ago by Korean Muyedobotongji textbook) gym & Karate gyms. However, Korea has had many other Fight Games, particularly street fighting games called Nalparam, Taekyun-Yetbub, Flag Fight (Gitssaum), Pyunssaum ("team-fight", "side-fight"), Sibak ("opponent-hitting"). In medieval Jaemulbo book, Sibak was recorded to be also Taekyun, which would mean also being included in Taekyun.

    https://i.imgur.com/18PfntV.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/jaTY5Zr.jpg

    https://mookas.com/news/11305
    "시박은 '서로 치는 것은 씨름의 일종인데 역(亦) 탁견'이라고 되어 있다." Translation: "Sibak's recorded, 'hitting each other (Sibak) is a type of wrestling, this is also Taekkyeon'." "시박? 낯선 이름이다. 위의 재물보에 수박과 함께 소개되고 있는 조선 고유의 체술 이었다." Translation: "Sibak? It's an unfamiliar name. Above in Jaemulbo, it's a Korean martial art introduced together with Subak." Murayama Jijun recorded Baksi & Nanjangbaksi in 1941, which were quite different from Taekyun.

    https://mookas.com/news/11150

    "경북군위군의 군사(軍士)훈련이었던 박시(재물보상의 ‘시박’으로 여겨진다. 1941년, 무라야마지준의 글에도 언급되고 있다. 수백명의 사람들이 팔짱을 끼고 서로 어깨로 밀어 붙여 진(陳)을 뚫는 것이다. 나중에 동네 왈패들이 신작로에 모여 난장박시라 하는 패싸움을 했었다)등이 있었다." Translation: Gyungbook military training Baksi, etc existed. Seems Sibak from Jaemulbo. 1941's Murayama Jijun also mentions this. Hundreds of people, arms locked, push each other with shoulders to penetrate formation. Later, town thugs gather on the road to do team street fighting called Nanjangbaksi." (Korean sometimes reverse the word order, like Baksi & Sibak.)

    Taekkyeon has both Taekkyeon & Sibak in it; there are 2 sets of games in Taekkyeon; Sibak (Baksi, Nanjangbaksi street fighting) is Yetbub. Sibak, including Nanjangbaksi recorded by Murayama Jijun, is also Taekkyeon other than the regular Taekkyeon. There are also other old names & games other than Sibak, like Gitssaum (Flag Fight, this is a fist fighting game that also represents general Pyunssaum, Sibak, Taekkyeon-Yetbub), Nalparam, etc; they are all a form of Sibak ("opponent-hitting") & Pyunssaum ("team fight", "side fight") enjoyed by Taekkyeon population historically for gaming street fight. Other than 1927's reputable newspaper's Gitssaum (Flag Fight) fist-fighting pictures, an old Poongsokhwa drawing of Pyunssaum by (most likely) Gisan Joongeun Kim also helps identifying Taekyun Yetbub's moves.

    https://i.imgur.com/jaTY5Zr.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/8H88aDn.png
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/An_old_Poongsokhwa_drawing_of_Pyunssaum_by_%28most_likely%29_Gisan_Joongeun_Kim.png

    In this old drawing, 2 teams are made, 1 team with red shirts and 1 team with black shirts. There are 2 games going on simultaneously. 1 game is Korean wrestling Ssireum; the other game is Pyunssaum punching & kicking, giving a visual understanding of Taekkyeon-Yetbub just like 1927's Gitssaum pictures. Yetbub is pyunssaum, Sibak which is also in Taekkyeon. Like the 1895's Prize Fight record, "the combatants generally fight with their fists, but, like the French, are much given to use their knees and feet as well in the contest."

    https://i.imgur.com/i03RApC.png
    Yetbub is basically street fighting in rules & postures. In 1927's Flag Fighting & 300 years old Korean Muyedobotongji Kwonbeop, shoulder-push is observed for punching front for extra mass, strength, speed.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtgeqsmWwAE9by-.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/jaTY5Zr.jpg

    As for the texture of Korean strikes, Korean uses Yong which means stacking speed & power in the entire body including arms. Even Korean Ikmyung Yang's 1692's record of breaking a stone with hand strike used Yongryuk.

    https://i.imgur.com/yJFsJWN.png

    Horizontal fist is also observed for punching in 1927's Flag Fight, 100 years old Korean street fighting, 300 years old Muyedobotongji Gwonbub/Kwonbeop.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtgdlTKW0AAkVDl.jpg
    https://i.imgur.com/18PfntV.jpg
    https://i.imgur.com/jaTY5Zr.jpg

    Taekkyeon Yetbub hits with such traits even today including in powerful punching (shoulder-push & Yong stacking speed, mass, power for horizontal-fist no-spin punching). Taekkyeon Yetbub's hand techniques have swings hitting front (& also hitting side such as jaw-breaking slap) as well as straight strikes including punching & frontal slap even today.

    Like Subak had Subakdaeo club to train, Nalparam also had a club to train. "1935년 7월 22일자 동아일보를 보자. [평양]지난 17일 평양서에서는 부내 창전리에서 주소부정의 현기한, 이오 외 십이명을 검거하야 엄중취조중이라는데 그들은 약 일주일전부터 기림리(산림리) 신궁앞 부근에서 부랑배 백수십여명을 모아노코 "날파람이"(망나니 짓이란 의미)를 연습하며". Translation: "Let's see 1935's July 22nd Dongailbo Newspaper. On the 17th, in Pyungyang's Changjeonli, Gihan Hyun, Oh Yi, etc 12 men were arrested and interrogated. They have gathered over a hundred thugs at Girimli (Sanlimli) Singoong's front, practicing Nalparami."

    https://mookas.com/news/11199

    https://mookas.com/news/11664

    A direct interview with Dukgi Song was recorded in Munyejinheung by Bohyung Lee, published in 1984 by Munyejinheungwon on Volume 11 Number 1 page 67 (이보형, 문예진흥 제 11권 1호, 문예진흥원, 1984.2, p.67, 이보형이 송덕기 옹에게 췌록한 내용). "누상동에는 '장칼'이라는 장사가 있어 키도 크고 힘도 좋고 '복장지르기', '가슴치기'등 택견솜씨가 좋았다." Translation: "Nusangdong had a strongman named Jangkal. He was tall & strong; he was good at Taekyun techniques particularly Bokjangjireugi (Front Stomp Kick), Gaseumchigi (Frontal Chest Slap), etc." Dukgi Song testified directly about frontal slap in Taekkyeon. "이보형이 송덕기 옹에게 췌록한 내용". Translation: "the content recorded by Bohyung Lee from direct interview with Dukgi Song."

    http://www.culturecontent.com/content/contentView.do?search_div=CP_THE&search_div_id=CP_THE014&cp_code=cp0406&index_id=cp04060046&content_id=cp040600460001

    https://i.imgur.com/O85h9KH.jpg

    The same interview & the same book (by Munyejinheungwon & Bohyung Lee, 1984, Munyejinheung Volume 11 Number 1 page 67) includes Dukgi Song's direct testimony how Taekyun Yetbub broke jaw with 1 slap to the jaw as well as his testimony how Taekkyeon had frontal chest slap. There are also online Taekkyeon articles on Taekkyeon Yetbub by the official Taekkyeon organizations.

    https://mookas.com/news/8491
    As a side note, slapping cheek is often thought as hitting side, but cheek or jaw is actually halfway frontal in about 45 degrees, not 90 degrees at side like ears. Also, hook and swing are two different motions; hook isn't really used for slapping cheek. Furthermore, sports create techniques & motions; they evolve & add motions not from everyday-life (explicit proofs have to check such). Also, whether hitting 45 degrees, 0 degrees or 90 degrees from the front, shoulder-push & Yong stacking speed, power, mass doesn't change for hand strike; the strike techniques are the same. Taekyun & Subak techniques are consistent in authenticity. Subak had swing slaps hitting front (frontal slap), straight slaps, punches already at the ancient time; Taekkyeon also had all those in the medieval times already. Straight slaps are also common in everyday-life anyway such as swatting, spanking. There are authoritative explicit proofs for Taekkyeon, Taekkyeon-Yetbub, Subak moves from the older eras by reputable sources.
     
  2. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Why do I have a Neil Simon song running through my head right now?
     
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  3. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    Taekkyeon-Yetbub is a street fighting game that includes punches, kicks, headbutt. Some people claim that Taekkyeon is lying that it included such different game from regular Taekkyeon. There are historical records that Nanjangbaksi and Sibak were included in Taekkyeon.
     
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  4. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    I added a reference regarding Taekkyeon having another Taekkyeon (street fighting including punch) in Taekkyeon.

    Regular Taekkyeon is a wrestling game with kicks allowed. 1920's Korean newspaper Dongailbo recorded Water Taekkyeon to throw a sister in law. Stewart Culin also recorded in the book "Korean Games with Notes on the Corresponding Games of China and Japan" that Taekkyeon has throwing in it. However, Taekkyeon has another Taekkyeon in Taekkyeon. In medieval Korean encyclopedia Jaemulbo, a new martial art called Sibak shows up; it was recorded to be "also Taekkyeon". Murayama Jijun recorded 100 years ago about Nanjangbaksi in Baksi. (Korean sometimes reverse the word order like Baksi & Sibak).

    He recorded Nanjangbaksi to be a team street fighting game like Korean Prize Fight historically recorded, not a wrestling game nor a kicking game. Also, in 1930's reputable Korean newspaper, it describes that Taekkyeon was recorded by Muyedobotongji as Gwonbeop including hand techniques. 1930's newspaper recorded that Taekkyeon has contents to be recorded as Muyedobotongji Gwonbeop. Although there may be discrepancies between the military version Gwonbeop and the civilian version Sibak, the newspaper corroborated that Taekkyeon has such contents within Taekkyeon.

    https://i.imgur.com/dKf5yB5.jpg

    Even in Subak Dance which represents the old Subak, frontal slap exists. "마무리; 어깨치기에 들어막기로 응수하고 양손 떼밀기하다가 옆구리치기에 무릎 세우기로 방어한다. 가슴치기에 슬쯕대어 피하고 이어서 상대허리를 감아 들고 힘있게 꺽듯이 하다가 엉덩방아를 찧게 한다. 다른 예도 있다."
    http://xn--bh3bz3i.net/tech/board.php?board=fghff&page=1&command=body&no=14

    Translation: "Last; slap opponent' shoulder to be corresponded by raising blocking, push opponent with both hands, slap opponent's waist to block by raising knee to defend. Slap opponent's chest to be dodged by swaying. Followed by wrapping opponent's waist with arms, powerfully bend it then let him fall on his ***. There are other cases." Subak Dance shows Subak, including slapping a dance partner's chest (frontal slap) as well as dodging it.

    Also, Subak has punch cause Gimu Hong & Namseon Choi both recorded Subak to be punching 100 years ago. Big conspiracy to claim both scholars lied. North Korea had Subak at Songdo; when North Korea talked about Subak, they knew what they were talking about. Also, North Korean martial art Gyuksul started as Subak, so they know what they are talking about Subak unless they all lied. Also, Subyuk is from Subak, but Subyuk also had a nickname "fist". It's a weird nickname unless Subak also had punch.

    Subak had frontal slap cause Manchuria's Subak Dance & Korean Taekkyeon (both the Sibak Yetbub and also the regular Taekkyeon) & Subyuk have frontal slap. Big conspiracy to claim they all lied and made up frontal slap. There are also ancient Subak pictures which look like frontal slap to head or chest. Pictures are acceptable proof commonly accepted in history. Therefore, Subak had punch and frontal slap.

    On top of it, there are Sibak (Taekkyeon-Yetbeob) & Gwonbeop in Korea. Mas Oyama also recorded in his book "karate for a million people" about Korean Gwonbeop existing even then 100 years ago. Sibak is an unfamiliar name to most people, but 300 years ago, Subak's era was over. Sibak started instead of Subak. Sibak is a Prize Fight game that Korean had.

    Like the 1895's Prize Fight record, "the combatants generally fight with their fists, but, like the French, are much given to use their knees and feet as well in the contest."

    That was an existing Korean martial art, which was Sibak, Pyunssaum, Taekkyeon-Yetbeob, Nalparam. (Different names were all acceptable.)

    https://i.imgur.com/i03RApC.png

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/An_old_Poongsokhwa_drawing_of_Pyunssaum_by_(most_likely)_Gisan_Joongeun_Kim.png
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
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  5. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    Subak's name being "clap" and Subyuk using palm only don't prove anything. On the other hand, I have many proofs for these Korean sports on many different sources. (Claiming they all made the same lie in identical details?) Subak had punch and frontal slap. 300 years ago, Subak's era was over except for North Korea's Songdo which had Subak and it became Gyuksul. Sibak & Gwonbeop started 300 years ago. Sibak is a legitimate martial art also included in Taekkyeon. Taekkyeon has 2 sports in it: regular Taekkyeon and Sibak (also Taekkyeon).

    "시박은 '서로 치는 것은 씨름의 일종인데 역(亦) 탁견'이라고 되어 있다." Translation: "Sibak's recorded, 'hitting each other (Sibak) is a type of wrestling, this is also Taekkyeon'." "시박? 낯선 이름이다. 위의 재물보에 수박과 함께 소개되고 있는 조선 고유의 체술 이었다." Translation: "Sibak? It's an unfamiliar name. Above in Jaemulbo, it's a Korean martial art introduced together with Subak." Murayama Jijun recorded Baksi & Nanjangbaksi in 1941, which were quite different from Taekyun.

    https://mookas.com/news/11150
     
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  6. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Blah Blah, nonsense Blah Blah racism Blah Blah Blah.
     
  7. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    There's no nonsense. Even today, Taekkyeon-Yetbub & Gyuksul exist. Even today, Subak has frontal slap & punch in Korean Subak Federation. Subak Dance & Taekkyeon have frontal slap & punch even today. Taekkyeon-Yetbub is a powerful street fighting game including punching. All these are true even today. Also, I showed historical records how these sports were the same even 100 years ago with technical details & categories. Also, Korean had Breaking Game independent of Karate in any era (400 years ago or 100 years ago, like Masato Tamura testified).

    Also, my moral "racism" is my right. I shouldn't be forced and imposed anything I don't like when I'm not harming anyone with my preference & pursuit of happiness. I can think for myself. There's nothing wrong with my "racism" which should be protected & pursued by me & the laws. Also, my racism doesn't change any facts regardless of your agenda, bias, goal, belief, motivations none of my problem. Keep your life style to yourself only.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  8. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Nope. The historical Korean arts you mentioned do not exist any longer. Ever Korean Martial Art practiced today has it's roots in Japanese Martial Arts. Even the people who founded them don't pretend otherwise.

    Moral racism is an oxymoron. Maybe you can find someone there to explain you what that means.

    The available evidence would seem to indicate otherwise.
     
  9. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    No, those traditional Korean martial arts have always existed. They were just not as well known. There are historical records in any era including 1960's up to today. There are non-Japanese powerful Korean martial arts in Korea having nothing to do with Japanese martial arts. This includes Subak, Sibak (Taekkyeon-Yetbub), Taekkyeon, Gyuksul, Nalparam, Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu Breaking. And the governing people of those sports do say they have nothing to do with Japanese arts.

    Moral racism is a thing. Regardless of how many times you claim otherwise, the facts don't change; what I do doesn't change; what I think doesn't change.

    It doesn't mean a thing whatever you pretend. Just annoying, nothing else. Just because you didn't know they have always existed doesn't mean a thing to the reality. Non-Japanese arts in Korea are not well known, but they have always been documented. Their powerful techniques are genuine; the lineage of those sports are genuine; they are backed up by historical records which I have shown already.

    For example, that Taekkyeon picture is from 1964 by Dukgi Song when he was younger.

    http://www.ohmynews.com/NWS_Web/View/at_pg.aspx?cntn_cd=A0000155937

    http://image.ohmynews.com/down/images/1/heon01_141022_1[164876].jpg

    Even in early 1960's, Nalparam lineage was discovered in North Korea too. "분단되지 않았다면 날파람도 이어졌으리라. 다행히 1960년 초, 북한의 계정희 교수에 의해 개성에서 발굴된 것이 있다."

    https://mookas.com/news/11664

    Not to mention Korean Prize Fight which was documented. Korean Breaking was also documented as power circus and existed even in Japan in 1940.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
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  10. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    At what point does this repetitive, factually incorrect nonsense qualify as spamming?

    I'm aware that there's an ignore function, but the threads are still there and they interfere with the otherwise high quality of this forum.

    The poster is clearly not interested in debate and just wants an echo chamber. There's plenty of room for that on reddit, where much of this bs is also posted.

    If you can't convince a group of martial artists who have a vested interest in the theme, then: nobody cares.

    [​IMG]

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
     
  11. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    How are these factually incorrect? Whether talking about Korean Breaking or talking about Korean fighting martial arts, I referenced many reputable sources. Just because you say they are factually incorrect doesn't make it so. These are referenced proper facts. And I'm only trying to connect to objective people & historians. Don't care about the people whining about racism. ("Racism, hence incorrect", what a nonsense.)

    Also, my moral racism is my right. Also, my racism doesn't change facts. Facts don't become lies just because of racism.

    Also, I updated my contents. Now, Japanese Karate has Breaking independent of Korea. But the same goes for both ways. Korean always has had powerful Breaking including Hand Breaking completely independent of Japan. It's a traditional Korean power circus. Also, Korean always has had many powerful martial arts including Sibak & Subak & Taekkyeon (including Taekkyeon Yetbub) completely irrelevant of Japan.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
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  12. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    You said that already. Boring.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
     
  13. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    There used to be so-called reputable sources that claimed Taekwondo was 2000 years old. Turned out it was just Shotokan in a new hat and the Koreans had made up a whole history out of a sense of misguided over-nationalism after the japanese occupation where so much of their culture and records were destroyed. All they ended up doing by creating that fantasy and getting caught in the lie was damaging Korea's reputation. Much as you are now.

    That alone casts doubt on any so called reputable source of historical documentation out of Korea. Claiming links between drawings and movement is open to interpretation and tenuous at best, and given that we know Koreans have blatantly made up histories before, sorry, but the word reputable does not apply. The best we have is to ask those who lived through it, which we have, and those accounts contradict the written histories. So, written records out if Korea have to be taken with a pinch of salt. Much like yourself.

    Now bog off back Reddit.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
     
  14. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Just out of curiosity why do you think people are thinking this?
    Taekkyeon-Yetbub is not a fake invention but a real Sibak culture"


    I've never heard anybody question Taekkyeon as being real or fake.
     
  15. Gweilo

    Gweilo Blue Belt

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    One of your sources is Wikipedia, which has a big header at the top of the page which states "this article needs more citations for verification" this is added to protect Wikipedia from being responsible for publishing false or incorrect information.
    So in Wikipedia's opinion the information is unproven or does not yet have the relevant facts to back up the information The author has written. I wonder who the author is???
     
  16. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Only in the sense that it no longer exists. What is taught today under the name Taekkyeon is not the same art that was practiced in Korea hundreds of years ago. So in that context, the current art is, in fact, a fake invention. Taekkyeon was known to be pretty much entirely kicking. There's no information at all about how those kicks were performed, how they were taught, etc.
     
  17. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I still don't see how it's "fake" here's why.

    1. There's no information at all about how those kicks were done
    2. There's no information at all how they were taught.
    3. Taekkyeon today is not the same art that was practiced in Korea hundreds of years ago (this only means that it's not the original)
    4. Taekkyeon today is the new Taekkyeon because the old Taekkyeon was lost.

    If 4 is true then how can it be a fake invention? It's just not the original Taekkyeon. I guess one would say that it's not the traditional Taekkyeon.

    For something to be fake one would have to actively be trying to pass it off as something that it's not. So are people trying to pass off Taekkyeon as the original?

    Edit: if you can find old video or images of people doing Taekkyeon then it would be possible to trace back how far it goes. If it's older than Taekwondo then the chance are good that some of the old techniques were passed down correctly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
  18. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    A few, yes.

    During the Japanese occupation of Korea, everything Koran was viciously suppressed. Koreans were required to take Japanese names. Korean women were forced to become sex slaves for the Japanese. The list of atrocities is long.
    As a result, there was a huge backlash against anything Japanese after Korea was liberated.
    One casualty of this was honesty. The founders of TKD claimed, at one point, that TKD traced it's roots back 2000 years to those ancient (and long gone) Korean arts. They made this claim even while acknowledging that their own training was in Shotokan/Judo/Kung-Fu. This has long since been acknowledged as a fabrication by all concerned.
    A few schools also cropped up claiming to teach things like taekkyeon and claiming that it was the original Korean art. There is at least one system that still claims this. There is, however, zero evidence to support the claim.
     
  19. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    He actually directly said in another thread that he has been editing wikipedia articles
     
  20. Gweilo

    Gweilo Blue Belt

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    Then I apologise, but this conversation is going on over several threads
     

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