Systema + another art?

[Azzazzin]

I am training Systema with Vlad in Thornhill, but there really is no conditioning...

Don't get me wrong, I love Systema, but I need something like boxing/kickboxing to really get me in shape...

But I was wondering if it would effect my Systema, and effect my movement and relaxation?

So which do you think is better to combind with Systema (if at all): American boxing or Mauy Thai kickboxing?

Thanks

-Azzazzin

 

[Arthur]

but there really is no conditioning...

ROFLOL Ah yeah right... I think we'll have to make this a featured post over on the RMA site, just for the comedic value alone.

If you find those 20 count pushups, squats andsitups to be easy... then you don't need anymore conditioning!

Arthur

 

[D_Brady]

Conditioning is very important just to make through Arthurs classes.

In some arts warm ups and conditioning take place just to kill time, but in systema it's a vital part of the system. The conditioning in Arthurs class kick my *** every week.

:boxing:

 

[Larry]

I take it you haven't told Vladimir you think he's being 'way too soft on you...

Here's a suggestion: make a simple polite request to Vladimir, Furtry or one of the other senior instructors to really give you a good conditioning workout.

I'm most confident they can have you do something to increase your cardio to the point where you're wheezing like a 20-year smoker with emphysema. Heck, I'm sure they can even give you chest pains!

Similarly, just ask Vlad or Furtry to hit or kick you with something that will knock you across the room into the wall. I'm sure that will answer all the questions you have about the need to learn boxing!

 

[Rommel]

I hope Vlad doesn't read your post or he's gonna kill us in our next workout. I'm dying as it is. Maybe there are masochists among us.

 

[Kingston]

Originally posted by Rommel
I'm dying as it is.

aw come on, its not that bad :cheers:

 

[Azzazzin]

I can do the pushups easy, I just run out of energy at the end because I just quit smoking (that's why I need to condition) but yeah the squats are hard...

I used to be an athlete, I just want to be able to retain my energy longer, which smoking has taken away from me...

 

[NYCRonin]

Conditioning problem? Stamina lacking and you want to go to kickboxing for an aerobic conditioning effect? Run or better still, learn to jump rope like a boxer. boxing/kick or otherwise will make you a better boxer and do little to add to your Systema - other than making you the one who people like to demonstrate on.
The RMA have many diverse conditioning exercises and, since you wrote that you are new to Thornhill, you aint seen nothing yet.
Vlad does NOT fill his sessions with conditioning movements (unless he feels there is a particular need for emphasis with the group there that night) - there is so much more to learn about form and movement.
Conditioning is an aspect that is best done as a supplement to RMA sessions - on your own time. Learning how to survive an actual encounter is more pressing than ones resting pulse rate - you gotta survive to have the pulse in the first place.

 

[Rich_]

I agree... like many people here, certainly from a Russian background, I feel that people aren't coming to my classes to learn how to do push-ups. Warm-ups are necessary, but busting yourself to muscle fatigue failure reduces your ability to learn and remember movements; totally counter-productive.

However, in answer to the question posed - if you want a martial art to complement the Russian stuff, and get in shape without boring yourself, I'd really recommend a grappling-heavy, sport-oriented art, judo or BJJ. You'll get a full workout, but at the same time you'll learn how to apply the relaxation and flow that Systema teaches.

I've tried boxing, judo, BJJ, all sorts of things as interesting asides; I found that my ROSS training improved all of them, but most especially the grappling- and sparring-heavy arts, and that these also brought the most to my understanding of ROSS. Boxing is easier to muscle through.

 

[platinum_angel]

dam* azz your 15 and you smoked

 

[Azzazzin]

...weed for 5 years...

 

[Azzazzin]

And I'm 16 (17 in July)

 

[platinum_angel]

*shakes head*

all my friends smoke too i'm the only one who doesn't. one of my friends had been smoking for around 5 years to now he's hooked and has bonchitis coughs all the time. still asks me if i want one too but i say neh man.

my personal opinion is that people who smoke are weak minded.

glad you stoped but i doubt you did. good luck

 

[Pervaz]

Me drops the cigarette down.

Weak willed ? Possibly

But I do enjoy it - even at almost $7 a pack of 20 !

Pervaz

 

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Originally posted by Rich_
I agree... like many people here, certainly from a Russian background, I feel that people aren't coming to my classes to learn how to do push-ups. Warm-ups are necessary, but busting yourself to muscle fatigue failure reduces your ability to learn and remember movements; totally counter-productive.

I find this to be an interesting topic of discussion. I agree that if one is attempting to teach their body to precisely reproduced a pre-planned activity then muscle fatigue failure reduces ones ability to learn. One of my passions is bowhunting with traditional equipment. This requires the shooter to practce replicating an exact motion over and over again. In this endeavor practice doesn't make perfect, PERFECT practice makes perfect. Hence I never practice to exhaustion or even close. Short frequent training sets are far more affective.

This also holds true for many martial arts. Arts that require the practitioner to learn specific motions with precise angles, movements, timing and shapes are best learned/practiced when fresh or at least not totally exhausted. I am not familiar with the ROSS system so I can't comment on how learning takes place for that system. Perhaps someone can expand.

My understanding of Systema is that one is best served by not learning specific motions, movements, angles, etc but instead should focus on natural, efficient motion. With this in mind push-ups, squats, etc are a very important part of training. Exhaustion of large muscle groups AIDS in natural motion. When the body is exhausted it will generally move in the most efficient and natural manner possible to save on energy. The body will resistant motions that are not efficient and substitute motions with the simplest and easiest answers.

Secondly, physical exhaustion affects the mind. In generally the consious mind keeps the body from moving naturally. We tend to over think our motions and use far more energy than necessary. We over tense muscle groups and even tense muscle groups that aren't needed. However, when the mind and body are exhausted we do the opposite and only use what is needed.

Over time it is the goal of the Systema practioner to move as naturally and efficiently as possilbe with as little consiuous thought as possible. Training when exhausted helps to teach the body/mind the potential of moving in such a manner and helps us to let go. Eventually natural motion is attainable without being exhausted. Therefore, my belief is that push-ups are an immensely important part of training and should be done continiously throughout a training class (for Systema). There are also many other lessons to be learned from push-ups but that requires a much longer post than I feel up to writing.

I would like to hear the thoughts of those more experienced in Systema than myself. Please let me know if I am thinking along the right line.

mark

 

[NYCRonin]

Mark
I would say that the road you are on is one that will take you to where you seek to go - I will buy the first round of cold vodka when you get here.
RobG

 

[RobP]

Great post Mark, I think you summed it up in a nutshell.

 

[Arthur]

Nice post Mark. Though I think its important that the fatigue creating exercises not become a crunch. People need to learn to initiate their own relaxation, they need to come to inherently move efficiently and from the core.

When people come to rely on the fatigue producing exercises it becomes the same as people stretching for a half hour before class so they can "kick high". It becomes class relevent only and their skills become only existent in class.

The pushup (squat, situp, etc.) should be studied like any other piece of the art. There are lessons in it, that should be sought and understood, but perhaps like all other Systema practices their comes a time to hold on to the lesson and forget the practice.

Arthur

 

[Rommel]

"People need to learn to initiate their own relaxation, they need to come to inherently move efficiently and from the core."

Great point. Vlad pointed out once that the main purpose of the exercises is not physical conditioning but learning how to coordinate breathing and movement. By doing many push-ups we learn what true relaxation is because we are supposed to do the push ups without tension but being held up by the bones and tendons. Push-ups, squats, and sit ups are always done with proper form. There are the 4 principles in action: Form, Movement, Breathing, and Relaxation. At the same time, you get a great physical work out, which makes sokoli stalina systema a perfect health system.

 

[Jay Bell]

Good points, Rommel. When we trained in San Diego, Vladimir kept stressing the pushups being based on structure...not on muscle. By the end of the weekend, everything seemed in sync. My muscles weren't really being worked very hard...everything smoothed out.

Unfortunately, I seem to have lost it...so I'm working on finding that place again. It was pretty amazing to be doing an insane amount of pushups and be just fine.