Systema a discussion

[Gerry Seymour]

If you did it indefinitely you would be undefeatable.

It is part of our gag corner routine we do. Where we will yell things like.

move out of the way of his punches.

Or

Just stand up.

What do you mean "would be"? I am undefeatable, damnit.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I understand that. But if you're not going to do anything (the post I quoted was contrasting the energy used for throwing versus simply evading), the attack likely continues.

My post was just tongue in cheek about his, that somehow avoiding, through the power of physics, will topple them over. I agree-less energy is spent throwing with their momentum than evading over and over.

 

[Gweilo]

My post was just tongue in cheek about his, that somehow avoiding, through the power of physics, will topple them over. I agree-less energy is spent throwing with their momentum than evading over and over.

No avoiding using efficeint moving, using physics to counter an opponent at their most vunerable point in the process of their movement, its an option we use, I agree sometimes the best answer is a good old smack in the face, its a tool, that we use, just because a TKD practioner talks in depth about a roundhouse, doesnt mean, they use a roundhouse exclusively, what I talk about is no different to Kung fu wangs paralell line quote, its a process that becomes 2nd nature, its a tool to be used when appropriate, its no different in the way its used, for example a lock or a throw, if its on, its on.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

No avoiding using efficeint moving, using physics to counter an opponent at their most vunerable point in the process of their movement, its an option we use, I agree sometimes the best answer is a good old smack in the face, its a tool, that we use, just because a TKD practioner talks in depth about a roundhouse, doesnt mean, they use a roundhouse exclusively, what I talk about is no different to Kung fu wangs paralell line quote, its a process that becomes 2nd nature, its a tool to be used when appropriate, its no different in the way its used, for example a lock or a throw, if its on, its on.

Unless I misunderstood, you seemed to suggest (in physics terms) that an opponent coming in with a hard swing will overextend themselves and trip over themselves when they swing, which makes avoiding and waiting for that trip the most efficient idea.

My experience suggest that's not the case, since even if they come rushing in, when you dodge they'll redirect themselves. It's better to use their overcommittance in the moment, with a counter-cross/strike or a throw, rather than let them have the chance to rebalance themselves and realize I know what I'm doing. The idea is to overwhelm them before they realize you're an actual threat, so they act cautiously. And that concept isn't really related to physics, but more to human nature/psychology.

 

[Gweilo]

Unless I misunderstood, you seemed to suggest (in physics terms) that an opponent coming in with a hard swing will overextend themselves and trip over themselves when they swing,

That is not what I meant, in the coming at you swinging senario, in Systema we are continually moving, and try to be in time with our opponent, in this senario, if my feet are in time with the attacker, once they launch the strike, its intension and course are in motion, there is a point of no return, at this point there can be no feint, no redirection, in effect the strike is executed, at that point my objective to have avoided the strike, and counter as the transfer of mass is near complete, in this senario, the attacker is coming at me, so he must transfer his mass to the lead leg, my intension is to strikebthe lead leg just before touch down, be it the knee, the foot etc having the same effect as a trip, when off balance, the attackers brain has an automatic trigger or instinct to correct the inbalance of the body, whilst unbalanced leaves this attacker open to follow on attacks, also If my timing and distance work is correct, I can strike the attacker at the same point as I attack the touch down leg.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That is not what I meant, in the coming at you swinging senario, in Systema we are continually moving, and try to be in time with our opponent, in this senario, if my feet are in time with the attacker, once they launch the strike, its intension and course are in motion, there is a point of no return, at this point there can be no feint, no redirection, in effect the strike is executed, at that point my objective to have avoided the strike, and counter as the transfer of mass is near complete, in this senario, the attacker is coming at me, so he must transfer his mass to the lead leg, my intension is to strikebthe lead leg just before touch down, be it the knee, the foot etc having the same effect as a trip, when off balance, the attackers brain has an automatic trigger or instinct to correct the inbalance of the body, whilst unbalanced leaves this attacker open to follow on attacks, also If my timing and distance work is correct, I can strike the attacker at the same point as I attack the touch down leg.

Okay, so if I understand you right, essentially what you're saying is: you wait until you are 100% certain they committed themselves to the strike, and then attack their lead leg to mess up their balance, at which point you can follow up with whatever you like to follow up with the most?

That works if you get the timing right, but personally I find it pretty difficulty to get that timing right. And while it works against the average bloke on the street, if it happens to be someone with experience, when they see you're not falling for their feint/they're counterattacking, they pull back. So theirs a chance it won't work, since you're giving them more time to react. Versus if you step in to them in order to strike or throw them, by the time they realize that you caught on to their attack, they're already punched/thrown. Since they don't have as much time to realize your action and adjust accordingly.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Okay, so if I understand you right, essentially what you're saying is: you wait until you are 100% certain they committed themselves to the strike, and then attack their lead leg to mess up their balance, at which point you can follow up with whatever you like to follow up with the most?

That works if you get the timing right, but personally I find it pretty difficulty to get that timing right. And while it works against the average bloke on the street, if it happens to be someone with experience, when they see you're not falling for their feint/they're counterattacking, they pull back. So theirs a chance it won't work, since you're giving them more time to react. Versus if you step in to them in order to strike or throw them, by the time they realize that you caught on to their attack, they're already punched/thrown. Since they don't have as much time to realize your action and adjust accordingly.

What I'm saying here is essentially the difference between "dodge parrying" by backing up and then going in to strike, versus trying to beat them on the initial strike. IMO dodge parrying just gives them a chance to flow into something you're not expecting, and is really something to be used more when you're taken by surprise, to plan your next move.

 

[Gweilo]

What I'm saying here is essentially the difference between "dodge parrying" by backing up and then going in to strike, versus trying to beat them on the initial strike. IMO dodge parrying just gives them a chance to flow into something you're not expecting, and is really something to be used more when you're taken by surprise, to plan your next move.

I have these otions too, systema is purely defensive, so our drills are counter attack, having done 2 other arts, there are times I revert to parrying and other techniques from Hapkido, sometimes its seamless, sometimes awkward.
I have no loyalty to any art, but, there are some really useful, parts to Systema for me, especially the strength, flexibility, and mental conditioning.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That is not what I meant, in the coming at you swinging senario, in Systema we are continually moving, and try to be in time with our opponent, in this senario, if my feet are in time with the attacker, once they launch the strike, its intension and course are in motion, there is a point of no return, at this point there can be no feint, no redirection, in effect the strike is executed, at that point my objective to have avoided the strike, and counter as the transfer of mass is near complete, in this senario, the attacker is coming at me, so he must transfer his mass to the lead leg, my intension is to strikebthe lead leg just before touch down, be it the knee, the foot etc having the same effect as a trip, when off balance, the attackers brain has an automatic trigger or instinct to correct the inbalance of the body, whilst unbalanced leaves this attacker open to follow on attacks, also If my timing and distance work is correct, I can strike the attacker at the same point as I attack the touch down leg.

That’s a concept found in many systems. It’s more pronounced in Systema and the aiki arts, but not at all unique to them. I’ve seen it discussed in boxing, Judo, MMA, BJJ, and Tang Soo Do, as well.

 

[jobo]

Tyson fury says different.View attachment 22892

thats tyson in his fat phase its not really a good example, the other guy is ricky hatton who didn't look like that when he was fighting for world championships

 

[jobo]

What I'm saying here is essentially the difference between "dodge parrying" by backing up and then going in to strike, versus trying to beat them on the initial strike. IMO dodge parrying just gives them a chance to flow into something you're not expecting, and is really something to be used more when you're taken by surprise, to plan your next move.

theres a level of art specific perspective here, if your art has you planted then moving isnt easy or efficient, if your of a school of its hard to hit a moving target then you just dont stand still, moving isnt more energy consuming coz its what your doing anyway

as to when to strike that depends on context, just keep moving out of range till they tire. throwing big punches that miss consumes a lot of energy, with any luck they will realise they look stupid and leave

personalty if its a hay maker id sooner be out of range than try and parry, beat them time wise, mess it up and get hit,,, its easy to walk into the follow up punch if you go in for a throw

if on the other hand they have annoyed you, attack them,, smack them,throw then on the ground jumped on them,, what ever, if you get hit , so what its fighting

 

[Gweilo]

That’s a concept found in many systems. It’s more pronounced in Systema and the aiki arts, but not at all unique to them. I’ve seen it discussed in boxing, Judo, MMA, BJJ, and Tang Soo Do, as well.

Never said it was unique too, I said in Systema we....
Just like to over complicate it when Head hunter comes a calling, it seems to rattle his cage, then he's off on one, making all kinds of assumptions generally being grumpy.

 

[drop bear]

thats tyson in his fat phase its not really a good example, the other guy is ricky hatton who didn't look like that when he was fighting for world championships

Fedor.

Combat sports are literally full of dad bods

 

[Headhunter]

Never said it was unique too, I said in Systema we....
Just like to over complicate it when Head hunter comes a calling, it seems to rattle his cage, then he's off on one, making all kinds of assumptions generally being grumpy.

Lol I’m not grumpy at all you just seem to assume that because I disagree with you

 

[Buka]

thats tyson in his fat phase its not really a good example, the other guy is ricky hatton who didn't look like that when he was fighting for world championships

When Ricky Hatton was coming up he was a beast. So much fun to watch his fights. We used to gather in front of the TV and watch Hatton all the time.

 

[Buka]

This is an example of courage gym in Townsville and my gym.

View attachment 22889

This is what is achieved.

Love it. I've always found it odd that people couldn't get fit while training Martial Arts or fighting.

One of the things I always promised my students was "You might lose to a better fighter, but I promise you won't lose to somebody in better shape than you."

 

[Gweilo]

When Ricky Hatton was coming up he was a beast. So much fun to watch his fights. We used to gather in front of the TV and watch Hatton all the time.

I used to get up at 2am to watch some of Hattons US fights, they were almost as exciting as mike Tysons fights, before he came off the rails.

 

[Gweilo]

Movement is key, and not just basic movement, it controlling individual parts at will, it is almost like break dancing of the early 80's, each move flows to the next, the following video from a Russian instructor sort of makes my point, physics, thec45 degree angle, distance and timing, along with movement, it is a Russian video so appologies for the communist sound track, but some of the movement, in ordervto deflect, or position to counter.

 

[Gweilo]

Even in Russian, angles, physics, and mass are clear

 

[jobo]

Even in Russian, angles, physics, and mass are clear

i had a Russian motor bike BRIEFLY
they used angles, physics and mass in that as well, it wasn't however very good at all.

perhaps not all angles physics ans mass are equal ?