Sword vs Katana?

[MingTheMerciless]

lol , that was really funny

 

[MingTheMerciless]

If he had two sword in his hand , how the hell can he throw a Shuriken ?

Anyway , if a Samurai use a longbow ( yumi and ya ) while a Knight use a lance . I need to remind you that back than Samurai's Arrow are stone tipped , there is no way it can penetrate plate armor and trying to aim for weak spot on a moving horses is very difficult

 

[thardey]

If he had two sword in his hand , how the hell can he throw a Shuriken ?

I was wondering who would catch that

Anyway , if a Samurai use a longbow ( yumi and ya ) while a Knight use a lance . I need to remind you that back than Samurai's Arrow are stone tipped , there is no way it can penetrate plate armor and trying to aim for weak spot on a moving horses is very difficult

Stone tips? Like obsidian? No Kidding?

 

[Blindside]

Stone tips? Like obsidian? No Kidding?

Just wrong.

http://www.arco-iris.com/George/yanone.htm

http://www.ncjsc.org/gloss_yanone.htm

 

[thardey]

Just wrong.

http://www.arco-iris.com/George/yanone.htm

http://www.ncjsc.org/gloss_yanone.htm

Folded steel arrowheads? That's even more surprising!

Kewl!

 

[Doc_Jude]

If he had two sword in his hand , how the hell can he throw a Shuriken ?

Maybe it was the dreaded "throat needle". I don't know, it happened so fast, I think that samurai may have been a NINJA!!!

 

[thardey]

Nah, if he had been a ninja, you would have never known he was there:


Knight: You have offended me! I challenge you to a duel!

****silence*****

Knight: Hello?


****silence****

*Knight dies

 

[MingTheMerciless]

But then Heavy Plate Armor ( well , not exactly heavy for the Men , as the weight was evenly distributed but it gonna be strenous on the horses but the strength of horses should not be underestimated as they can carry a men who was 1/3 of their body weight . Most European Noble should weight around 170 lbs to 190 lbs plus a 80 lbs armor that would require a Destrier to be at least 810 lbs to 1080 lbs to carry a fully armored knights . ) would not be as useful when used on the open steppes ( Russia , even if a mounted knights are capable of kicking any nomadic horseman butt anyday in a stand-still melee , they are too slow to chase down them down on a hit-and-run tactic who tend to rely on speed is armor ) and hot arid climate ( Arabia , knights will cook in their own armor ) as compare to the more heavily wooded and snowy terrian of Europe ( Knights were very comfortable wearing those Heavy Armor and it is easier to play guerilla warfare in Europe ) .

 

[Langenschwert]

Earlier in the thread, I mentioned sword sharpness and gripping the blade. To illustrate just for fun, here's a clip of me pulling my instructor while he's gripping the blade of my slightly too-sharp Albion Earl. Note that he holds on for a while, far beyond what would be needed in unarmoured combat. He must weight close to 190 libs, and I weight 195-ish. Now this isn't how it would be done in combat (obviously), but the principle is sound. Gripping the opponent's blade for a moment is certainly possible, and gripping one's own without injury is not difficult. Sharp swords aren't lightsabers.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Charles Mahan]

Earlier in the thread, I mentioned sword sharpness and gripping the blade. To illustrate just for fun, here's a clip of me pulling my instructor while he's gripping the blade of my slightly too-sharp Albion Earl. Note that he holds on for a while, far beyond what would be needed in unarmoured combat. He must weight close to 190 libs, and I weight 195-ish. Now this isn't how it would be done in combat (obviously), but the principle is sound. Gripping the opponent's blade for a moment is certainly possible, and gripping one's own without injury is not difficult. Sharp swords aren't lightsabers.

Best regards,

-Mark

I'm guessing that wouldn't work with my shinken for two reasons. The first is that my blade is absurdly sharp. Slices paper easily sharp. I've had a knowledgable Japanese sword restorer refer to it as "stupid sharp". You can grab the edge sure and put as much pressure on it as you want, but you better not slide. Not even a little bit. And you will slide if you try what I saw in that video. That's the second reason it wouldn't work. My blade is covered in a thin layer of choji oil, which means it is just a bit slippery. It will start to slide, and when it does it will cut to the bone in an instant.

In the heat of the battle, where momentarily getting cut

 

[Langenschwert]

I'm guessing that wouldn't work with my shinken for two reasons. The first is that my blade is absurdly sharp. Slices paper easily sharp. I've had a knowledgable Japanese sword restorer refer to it as "stupid sharp". You can grab the edge sure and put as much pressure on it as you want, but you better not slide. Not even a little bit. And you will slide if you try what I saw in that video. That's the second reason it wouldn't work. My blade is covered in a thin layer of choji oil, which means it is just a bit slippery. It will start to slide, and when it does it will cut to the bone in an instant.

In the heat of the battle, where momentarily getting cut

There are some koryu where the blade is grabbed, usually by the spine, as you know. It also depends how sharp you keep your sword. The sharper the edge, the more fragile it is. I've heard that some Samurai purposefully dulled their blades a bit before heading to fight on the battlefield. If so, it would greatly increase the sword's durability. A super-sharp blade is not required to kill a human being (I know, preaching to the choir). Even one slightly sharper than a butter knife will kill as easily as one that is sharp. I've personally cleanly cut frozen pumkin (as in fronzen solid) with a blade that was probably had 2 mm worth of blunt edge... as blunt as the edge of my clipboard. I didn't even feel the impact. Cut the thing like a laser. So my question is... how sharp do practicioners of iado, shinkendo and kenjutsu keep their nihon-to today as opposed to feudal japan? Some modern shinken have different blade profiles compared to antiques for tameshigiri, so perhaps there is a dichotomy in blade sharpness as well. Does anyone have the skinny on this?

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[thardey]

There are some koryu where the blade is grabbed, usually by the spine, as you know. It also depends how sharp you keep your sword. The sharper the edge, the more fragile it is. I've heard that some Samurai purposefully dulled their blades a bit before heading to fight on the battlefield. If so, it would greatly increase the sword's durability. A super-sharp blade is not required to kill a human being (I know, preaching to the choir). Even one slightly sharper than a butter knife will kill as easily as one that is sharp. I've personally cleanly cut frozen pumkin (as in fronzen solid) with a blade that was probably had 2 mm worth of blunt edge... as blunt as the edge of my clipboard. I didn't even feel the impact. Cut the thing like a laser. So my question is... how sharp do practicioners of iado, shinkendo and kenjutsu keep their nihon-to today as opposed to feudal japan? Some modern shinken have different blade profiles compared to antiques for tameshigiri, so perhaps there is a dichotomy in blade sharpness as well. Does anyone have the skinny on this?

Best regards,

-Mark

I don't know about Japan, but a while ago, I read that the American cavalry had problems with too-sharp blades getting wedged into bone, and being difficult to withdraw during battle, so they recommended dulling their blades a little. I'll see if I can find any references to it, it's been a while.

 

[Charles Mahan]

There are some koryu where the blade is grabbed, usually by the spine, as you know. It also depends how sharp you keep your sword. The sharper the edge, the more fragile it is. I've heard that some Samurai purposefully dulled their blades a bit before heading to fight on the battlefield. If so, it would greatly increase the sword's durability. A super-sharp blade is not required to kill a human being (I know, preaching to the choir). Even one slightly sharper than a butter knife will kill as easily as one that is sharp. I've personally cleanly cut frozen pumkin (as in fronzen solid) with a blade that was probably had 2 mm worth of blunt edge... as blunt as the edge of my clipboard. I didn't even feel the impact. Cut the thing like a laser. So my question is... how sharp do practicioners of iado, shinkendo and kenjutsu keep their nihon-to today as opposed to feudal japan? Some modern shinken have different blade profiles compared to antiques for tameshigiri, so perhaps there is a dichotomy in blade sharpness as well. Does anyone have the skinny on this?

Best regards,

-Mark

We do grab the mune in MJER, but while it is possible to grab the blade by the mune, it isn't really possible to secure the grip as in the video in this fashion. The grip is just not strong enough without being able to wrap your fingers around the edge. As I said in the heat of the moment it might be tactically wise to grab your enemies sword in order to take advantage of an opening, but it's likely to get you cut, and cut badly. Might be worth it though.

I agree that we keep them somewhat sharper now than is truly necessary. If I was going out to battle where I could expect to impact harder targets, ie armor, then I would definitely take it and wack it into some sand a few times to blunt the edge a bit. The real problem is not so much an issue of fragility of the edge. Good Japanese swords are good that way. The real problem is with the extreme of the edge "rolling over" a bit, thus presenting a far duller edge than would be prudent. So it's better to remove that super thin edge so it won't bend on contact with a hard object.

So I would leave it sharp if I was just walking around town, but if I was preparing for a pitched battle, I'd want to take the edge off a bit. Of course for a pitched battle, I probably wouldn't be using my sword much anyway.

 

[thardey]

I don't know about Japan, but a while ago, I read that the American cavalry had problems with too-sharp blades getting wedged into bone, and being difficult to withdraw during battle, so they recommended dulling their blades a little. I'll see if I can find any references to it, it's been a while.

Here it is:

Interesting enough, against unarmored opponents, a sword could be too sharp. During the Indian Wars the U. S. Cavalry troops were ordered not to sharpen their sabers since the sharp ones tended to cleave into and get stuck in the bone.)

 

[Sukerkin]

Thanks for that historical morsel, Thardey :tup:. I'd never heard that before outside of a Japanese framework.

On that subject, it is more than likely that the tales, of Samurai deliberately blunting their swords by slashing them in sand (usually referenced in the same breath as the Mongol 'invasion'), are apocryphal.

Altho' as given to flights of fancy, poetry and entrancement with needless artiface as anyone else, the Samurai would be unlikely to order a sword 'too sharp' in the first place. Given the expense a decent katana entailed, you wouldn't want to buy one not 'fit for purpose', as the modern phrase goes.

 

[Charles Mahan]

I can only pass on what I've been taught. It is up to you what to believe.

 

[Langenschwert]

We do grab the mune in MJER, but while it is possible to grab the blade by the mune, it isn't really possible to secure the grip as in the video in this fashion.

It's not grabbed like that either in KDF or Armizare, but it's a demonstration of a prinicple. If I can haul my instructor around while he's gripping the blade, then one can certainly grab a static blade momentarily to gain an advantage and thereby kill the opponent. A possibility of a small laceration to the hand is worth it. Considering the amount of callous I'm getting through my training, I imagine a "real" swordsman would have a nice thick layer of it if he was training from childhood. I myself do cuts and guard transitions with a blunt sword "reversed" (i.e. in the mortschlag position) every day both for strength and for the callousing effect it has on my hands. I prefer to do most of my sword work without gloves. However, a good pair of sweat-soaked leather riding gloves stick to a blade like glue. There's virtually no possibility of a blade sliding through that.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Sukerkin]

I can only pass on what I've been taught. It is up to you what to believe.

That's all any of us can do, my friend, especially when at one-step removed from our 'audience' as we are on the Net.

 

[Sukerkin]

On the subject of sword grabbing, this thread at SFI seems pertinent:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=83189

 

[MatthiasRhineGuard]

Yo, this is my first post so i can get us back on subject. The Longsword would probably snap the Katana in pieces with one strike, and would liquify the dudes insides if it made contact. The Katana is more agile however, and all it would take is one nick in the throat or femoral artery and the guys dead in a few minutes.
Also just a fact. Mail could stand up to an ultra-sharp Katana with a huge blow, and plate would be even better.