sword and hammer, left hand action

[satans.barber]

I was taking some students though Sword and Hammer the other night, and for some reason I wasn't sure what I should be doing with my left hand...

As the grab comes on, I seem to countergrab with my left hand as I let the handsword go in, then change this to a check as I do the hammerfist (in case the head comes forward I guess).

I looked at the tape that Mr. Cawood gave us, and he just keeps his hand as a check all the way through the technique though.

I'm not keen on the idea of just having a check; if someone is grabbing your shoulder then their hand is right next to your face - there's very little to stop them clawing to your eyes, pulling on your ear or hair etc., and also controlling your height, width and depth to varying degrees by pulling on your clothes...which is why I prefer a flat handed countergrab to start off with.

How do you guys do it? Is there even a correct way to teach/execute this or os it more a matter of personal preference? Obviously this is the ideal stage I'm talking about here...

Thanks,

Ian.

 

[Shodan]

Well, I learned it with the left hand pinning the attacker's hand to your shoulder throughout the whole tech.

:asian: :karate:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by satans.barber
I was taking some students though Sword and Hammer the other night, and for some reason I wasn't sure what I should be doing with my left hand...

As the grab comes on, I seem to countergrab with my left hand as I let the handsword go in, then change this to a check as I do the hammerfist (in case the head comes forward I guess).

I looked at the tape that Mr. Cawood gave us, and he just keeps his hand as a check all the way through the technique though.

I'm not keen on the idea of just having a check; if someone is grabbing your shoulder then their hand is right next to your face - there's very little to stop them clawing to your eyes, pulling on your ear or hair etc., and also controlling your height, width and depth to varying degrees by pulling on your clothes...which is why I prefer a flat handed countergrab to start off with.

How do you guys do it? Is there even a correct way to teach/execute this or os it more a matter of personal preference? Obviously this is the ideal stage I'm talking about here...

Thanks,

Ian.

Which direction do you step sir? Towrd your opponent, or away?

 

[Michael Billings]

I use a pinning check in the IDEAL PHASE.

The what if includes a leg buckle and counter-rotation of their left hand into a wrist lock. That is unless you want to to make them bounce up and down like a jack-in-the-box by hitting neck, groin, neck, groin, neck, groin, ad nauseam (a fun little demo Mr. Parker did once.)

-Michael

 

[satans.barber]

Towards...

Into a shallow horse for the handsword and then dropping into a close reverse kneel for the hammerfist.

I should maybe mention we do the attack specifically as a flank attack, with the attacker behind and off to the side (as opposed, for example, to Obscure Wing where the attacker is more directly behind your shoulder) - I'm not sure if this is the EPAK standard...

:asian:

Thanks,

Ian.

 

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
I use a pinning check in the IDEAL PHASE.

The what if includes a leg buckle and counter-rotation of their left hand into a wrist lock. That is unless you want to to make them bounce up and down like a jack-in-the-box by hitting neck, groin, neck, groin, neck, groin, ad nauseam (a fun little demo Mr. Parker did once.)

-Michael

Yes, that was something that I forgot to mention!

Being a massive fan of ending with a wrist lock (well, actually a wrist lock and then a massive sweep usually, mmm, chin into the pavement ) I like to have that option there by keeping the pin on.

From the pinning check, it's also easy to go into an uppercut lock, which is another favourite of mine [*].

Ian.

[*] in fact, a technique that I've been taught in the past and really like (and I don't know the name), is from a flank right shoulder grab (same as Sword and Hammer):

1) pin the grab with your left hand, simultaneously backfist to the sternum, bouncing off and quickly
2) backfist to the face, continuing the motion through behind the arm and coming into
3) a full uppercut lock (can come right forward to dislocate the shoulder), then
4) from the extent of the lock, a whipping backfist to the sternum/stomach which
5) continues around as an inverted backfist to the base of the neck (releasing the pin at this point), and as the inverted backfist comes back towards you
6) horizontal palm heel to the sternum and finally
7) inverted leapoard's paw to the filtral nerve

5-7 are the same ending as Obscure Claws (the way we do it anyway...).

Also, settling into a forwards stance at the appropriate points of course.

I think I've remembered that right, it's a long while since I did it! it is a good technique, though, although I'm sure someone can pick a hole in it

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by satans.barber
Towards...

Into a shallow horse for the handsword and then dropping into a close reverse kneel for the hammerfist.

I should maybe mention we do the attack specifically as a flank attack, with the attacker behind and off to the side (as opposed, for example, to Obscure Wing where the attacker is more directly behind your shoulder) - I'm not sure if this is the EPAK standard...

:asian:

Thanks,

Ian.

Interesting perspectives I have seen before. At the first level, I was taught by Mr. Parker to step away from the attack to create distance with my “best friend” for a white belt technique. And because it was mentioned, he also explained “Obscure Wing” and “Sword and Hammer were the same attack, and the differences were only in the level of experience and awareness of the individual, and the latter was a simple progression of the former, and not an anomalous different technique.

An aggressor reaches and extends his/her arm to make contact and then closes the distance to “Sword & Hammer” range forcing you to move away to create the distance for your first offensive move. In “Obscure Wing” you are more skilled and react more quickly, stepping toward your attacker who “collides” with your elbow as he moves toward you. (To beat action, meet action)

Thus my first difference is at that level, in my opinion, you should be stepping away thus “creating distance” rather than “accelerating” his attack by stepping toward him with an “extended weapon” that requires a specific distance to be effective, before you actually “control” the space.

Next the “pinning” of the hand is directly related anatomically to the action of your right arm. Pinning or reaching in a downward movement contradicts and outward Handsword. I was once again, taught to utilize a “pak sao” slapping check at the shoulder synchronous with the striking outward hand-sword. You need, at this level, only to “check” the hand momentarily to protect yourself. The initial strike counter will, regardless of physical effect, reflexively cause the hand to “recoil” because “Psychology of Confrontation” methodology has shown the attacker is not anticipating an immediate retaliatory response, and will instinctively move his hand to “protect” when struck first.

Yes I was taught to “pin” the hand, but that is a Level Three application, and the hand weapon, target, and angle of the retaliatory right hand then compliments the “pinning hand” for a different technique application of the same offensive attack.

So I guess my humble advice is simply, “don’t pin, slap-check, and step away, not toward.”

There are many viable options available to a skilled individual, but I respectly remind you that a default application of a yellow belt" technique should be commensurate with the level of experience of the level being taught.

With this in mind, endless options and "what if's" serve no white belt (or others) well. Technique taught should be definitive and functional for the student. Other levels should be the same. Teaching a beginner "what if's" when he isn't fully functional with anything well, is counterproductive in my opinion.

 

[satans.barber]

Thanks for the detailed reply Doc, that makes a lot of sense now :asian:

I wonder though, I was always taught that the opponent is pulling you backwards or elsewise turning you towards the punch (why else would they grab you at the shoulder?), so I think it might be quite difficult to step forwards unless you were considerably bigger physically than your aggressor; especially since you have no bracing angle in the direction that they're pulling you?

Of course, if it was just a resting hand on the shoulder to trick you into turning into the punch (a very natural reaction I think), then stepping forwards would be an option.

I think I'll have to have everyone play with this a bit in the next class and see what we can come up with...

Thanks again,

Ian.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by satans.barber
Thanks for the detailed reply Doc, that makes a lot of sense now :asian:

I wonder though, I was always taught that the opponent is pulling you backwards or elsewise turning you towards the punch (why else would they grab you at the shoulder?), so I think it might be quite difficult to step forwards unless you were considerably bigger physically than your aggressor; especially since you have no bracing angle in the direction that they're pulling you?

Of course, if it was just a resting hand on the shoulder to trick you into turning into the punch (a very natural reaction I think), then stepping forwards would be an option.

I think I'll have to have everyone play with this a bit in the next class and see what we can come up with...

Thanks again,

Ian.

The attack is from the 3 0'clock flank. You step away to 9 o'clock. An attacker from the rear with an intent to strike has no need to grab. The grab is because his primary intent is to intimidate, with a possible right hand strike being secondary triggered by your action or reaction.

He will be close (forcing you to step away) because he's attempting to intimidate and is not concerned with retaliation. If he were, he wouldn't grab or attack from the flank. He would simply come up from behind and "crack" instead.