futsaowingchun
Black Belt
A short explanation on how I use and interpret the Sup Gee Sao or 10 Character Hand or crossing hand. As found in the beginning of all three hand sets
Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu, and Bil Tze.
Sup Gee Sao
- Thread starter futsaowingchun
- Start date
Thanks for the explanation! That makes sense. I've always considered it a way to define the centerline. I was taught that it goes back to the time when big mirrors in nice training halls were not common. So the student was taught to use this motion to make sure they were "square" and to define the centerline so it is set in mind at the beginning of the training. Not all lineages use the rolling Kwan motion when transitioning from the low to high positions. Some just pivot at the wrists.
Danny T
Senior Master
There is a lot in this video on a basic aspect I agree with and use.
I like your clip. The "double switching hands" is an important skill in CMA. Just for the sake of discussion, you move from your opponent's one side door to another side door and "by pass" his front door. Do you ever move from your opponent's side door to his front door, or move from his front door to his side door? Is there any reason that you "by pass" your opponent's "front door"?
I like to attack through my opponent's front door because his whole body is exposed under my attack. I can use left Tan Shou and right punch to enter between my opponent's arms. If he punches with his left hand, I can change my right punch into right Tan Shou, change my left Tan Shou into left punch, and I'm still inside of his front door. What's your opinion on this?
Here is a "side door" attack.
Here is a "front door" attack.
I like to attack through my opponent's front door because his whole body is exposed under my attack. I can use left Tan Shou and right punch to enter between my opponent's arms. If he punches with his left hand, I can change my right punch into right Tan Shou, change my left Tan Shou into left punch, and I'm still inside of his front door. What's your opinion on this?
Here is a "side door" attack.
Here is a "front door" attack.
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In TWC a primary tactic is to avoid fighting at the opponent's front door when you can. The idea is that if you are standing square in front of the opponent within his front door he has the opportunity to use both of his arms equally. So you are fighting with your two arms against his two arms in a relatively "even" match. However, if you move to the side door then he cannot use both of his arms equally. This way you are fighting with two arms against his one arm and have given yourself an advantage. And you don't have to be on the outside of his arm as in your example to be at the side door. You can be between his arms but can step out to the side to off-balance him and move away from his other arm while still coming at him from the side angle.
Agree that you have to deal with both of your opponent's arms. But he also has to deal with both of your arms too. One has no advantage over the other.
If you think that you are
- better than your opponent, you attack him through his front door (aggressive approach).
- equal or less skill than your opponent, you attack him through his side door (conservative approach).
From a wrestler point of view, "It's better to be inside than to be outside". This is why I prefer to move in through the front door. Instead of trying to get a lucky punch from the side door, I'll commit myself and deal with my opponent's both arms ASAP. This way, either I win, or I lose, there won't be anything in between.
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Jake104
Black Belt
In a fight you'll have to take what you get, inside or outside. There won't be time to transition from in or out or vice versa
. So your right if your inside a " side door" or slight angle can give you an advantage. Rather then coming straight up the middle. A slight angle could mean you're square but you've taken your opponent slightly of center. You make his body the angle.. I prefer the inside in most circumstances. It just takes confidence and full commit. I like the outside when fighting in opposite lead situations. But like I previously said. You take what your given.
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Jake104
Black Belt
I think he's bypassing the front door for purpose of demonstrating an idea? But you can't do that in a fight with someone going full speed and with intent. There just isn't going to be enough time. You will get mowed over. You can't conform around an opponent. A better idea is making your opponent conform around you. This way the front door, side door, inside, and outside become irrelevant. You are dictating where he goes not vice versa
.
But which door that you want to enter is up to you. When your opponent punches you with his right hand, if you block your
- left Tan Shou from your right to your left and punch back with your right fist, you will enter through his front door.
- right Tan Shou from your left to your right and punch back with your left fist, you will enter through his side door.
Danny T
Senior Master
Front door sometimes, side door sometimes, every situation is different. What is the opponent's weakness, what is the opponent giving, is the opponent empty handed or is there a weapon.
Jake104
Black Belt
Yes but for me that's too much thinking. Personally I'm going to react in Oh Sheet kind of way if I'm being attacked. If I'm sparring then yeah I can be more technical. But being attacked I'm just going to react. I'm not going to think tan bong, fuk. I'm thinking kill kill kill! I'm taking what I get.
Jake104
Black Belt
Why not just punch from tan if inside? So if opponent leads with right cross angle right slightly and throw left tan as punch instead of block? You can still maybe fire off right lead punch but if left tan has the line throw it. Instead of chasing for a block? Because while you are tan and punching the opponent is not eating a sandwich. His other punches are coming in and fast!
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Jake104
Black Belt
What I'm saying is. I'm not going to tan punch left then tan punch right and so on. I'm going to maybe use tan to block if I'm late. If I'm early I'm hitting you with it. No more blocking. The tan punch drill will not work in a fight IMO against a halfway decent fighter. Unless he's eating a sandwich or baking a cake. Like you see in demos.
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Danny T
Senior Master
My personal expression and practice is vs a weapon being involved in some manner. What I have experience (for myself) when an edged weapon is being defended there are many aspects that are different vs an empty hand. If it works vs a blade it will also work vs an empty hand however, there are many empty hand techniques than do not work vs a blade. I prefer to bring my 6 major gates against the opponent's 3 rather than 6 vs 6. When on the inside vs a weapon the actions that allow simultaneous defenses vs the opposite hand keeps you exposed for major damage from the weapon arm. On the outside gates that changes giving you more coverage.
Jake104
Black Belt
Yes knife is tricky cause there doesn't need to be power or torque or wind up behind it. Like a punch. Just a slight angle or direction change. And your cut. Inside is more dangerous agreed. But again controlling and not conforming is key. The 3 vs 6 gate theory is even more crucial against a bladed weapon and even more so when on the inside.
This is why I like to evolve the "Tan/punch" into "rhino horn" that both arms are Tan and both arms are punch. It works as a wedge, integrate both offense and defense as one move, and be able to deal with opponent's punches from both directions.
OP
futsaowingchun
Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #17
Thanks KPM glad you liked the video..I was worried when I made it if it was to overly simple,but to me it's important. Without centerline there is no Wing Chun in my opinion. What I wanted to also to say in the video which I did not properly touch on was how important those movements are. It shows how to use the centerline as well how to mantain it and recover when you lose it. The motions them self speaks louder then words but sometimes it need to be spoken.
OP
futsaowingchun
Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #18
I believe the Sup Gee Sao is used for the side door because of a 45 degree of the double Tan and Gan. We have a 90 angle tan sao and gan sao which is used for the inside gate but it can also be used on the outside as well. using eaithe the inside or out has both good and bad. Staying to the outdoor in general is safer because you opponent is not facing and is out falnked so you have a tactical advantage. Fighting on the inside is better if your faster,have more mass and stronger then your opponent. you can take advantage of your opponent smaller size and end the fight fast. However,if your smaller and weaker this is not a good tactice. Which is why WC INO if designed for a women which is smaller and weaker then a man she would never attack on the indoor. that would be suicide. It would be smarter to out flank her bigger and stronger opponent and use his strenght against him by, That would be the only way she could win. Of course,if your a WC guy who is 200lbs and very strong then you have options. If you can end the fight fast then don't waste time move in for the kill..I like your clip. The "double switching hands" is an important skill in CMA. Just for the sake of discussion, you move from your opponent's one side door to another side door and "by pass" his front door. Do you ever move from your opponent's side door to his front door, or move from his front door to his side door? Is there any reason that you "by pass" your opponent's "front door"?
I like to attack through my opponent's front door because his whole body is exposed under my attack. I can use left Tan Shou and right punch to enter between my opponent's arms. If he punches with his left hand, I can change my right punch into right Tan Shou, change my left Tan Shou into left punch, and I'm still inside of his front door. What's your opinion on this?
Here is a "side door" attack.
Here is a "front door" attack.
Also using the indoor to attack is dangerous with a good grappler it would be better aagain to not fight him like your picture..it would better smarter to move around hin and strile at diferent angles having him gusssing when the next attack is going to be..
Jake104
Black Belt
I can see what your saying for a smaller opponent having to use more angling and flanking. But I think there is a difference between moving around someone and making them move around you, wouldn't you agree? Even if the opponent is much larger and stronger. I think you can redirect there committed energy and guide it to where it needs to be? Which I see in your video I think?
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Jake104
Black Belt
I don't think being on the inside means you have to be faster? I think you are faster by default anyway inside. Since the target is closer and depending on angle of attack it may end up being a straighter and more direct shot. Also I don't see how mass or strength changes from outside to inside. Structure is structure? Mass is mass?
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