Style bashing

drop bear

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In the end, that's one of the most important things most of us get out of our training, whether it is fight-effective or not.

Now, this comes back to a recurring question of how much the system matters, and how much the training approach matters. And I think the answer (as with nature vs. nurture) is that they both matter more than some people think and less than others think. For the moment, let's assume all MA pursuits should end up with effective fighting (to remove argument about whether that's the case or not).

If I say "Karate is crap because of kata", that's a pretty clear bias against a training tool, not really supported by any specific evidence. Even if I could assert (with evidence) that kata were less effective than other means (which incidentally, I cannot), that wouldn't be evidence that there's something really wrong with kata. I might be able to make a similar assertion about a 50-pound heavy bag as opposed to a 75-pound one. But just because on is generally better, that doesn't make the other bad, so my evidence wouldn't be enough. And then we have to decide if the training method is actually the style. Some would argue it is, but there's no reason a style based on forms (kata) couldn't be taught without the forms, just by teaching what was in the forms. It would change the training, but not the system (if we define "system" as the collection of techniques, strategies, and tactics).

So, if a style includes some techniques that aren't effective, is that a bad style? I'd argue it depends how they are used, what percentage of the style/focus they are, and probably some other factors. Okay, if it's 50% ineffective (for fighting - remember our assumption here) techniques, that's probably a weak system. But what if it's 10%, or 25%? I'm not sure at what point it starts to become an actual problem. I expect if we looked into the entirety of every system, we'd find some things (perhaps not taught everywhere) that were less-than-optimal. And then we get the real confusion when some of those are actually quite good, but only under very limited circumstances - are those "ineffective" or "specialized"?

Of course, there are some things we can pretty universally agree are ineffective, in that none of us believe they'd work if we stepped in and let them try it on us. The problem is finding the right line between that and a few objectionable practices within a system - a line beyond which we consider the system "bad".

It has a lot to do with the feedback you receive inside the club. The feedback that the people who drive the concept of the club or style have received. There is a good video on resisted training that I cant find and have settled for Jocko Willik and his views on combatives for the military.

Which is a discussion on Martial arts for the use of getting fighters to win fights rather than getting people off the couch.


I have no issue with getting people off the couch. So long as they know that the effort they put in defines the result they get out. If they do a style where everyone just falls over. Then when somone fights back it is going to be hard.

I do a soft version of MMA myself. I miss days I dont do the fitness. there are drills I dont do. But if I was to compete. If I was to really have to use the style. I could not afford to do a soft version.

It is the understanding that effectivness really needs to be trained in a certain manner.

And that certain manner is honest.
 
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Martial D

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Here have another
That you stalk me around every thread on every subject and spam the disagree button because I hurt your feelings in some other thread 2 months ago speaks volumes about your character.
 

drop bear

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If you put up a clip like this, you are not basing BJJ but to indicate that some BJJ guy has extended the "sport rule set" a bit too far.

IMO, this kind of comment is good for the BJJ in the long run.


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The best result would be to compete some BJJ and compete other stuff. There is nothing wrong with facing a guy like that or even using that so long as it is not your whole thing.

Butt flopper submitted the other guy by the way. So laugh all you want at the concept. It worked.
 
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Martial D

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I think the issue is that some folks (and my memory is crap enough that I can't really recall if you've done this) come out too strong against specific practices and approaches, before finding out if they've produced positive results or if there's a good reason for them. I actually welcome folks (including my students) questioning why I do things the way I do. What I don't welcome is someone dismissing what has been effective for folks in the past, because it doesn't fit their image of what should work, or coming in aggressively, rather than starting a discussion.
There is a difference between a style and the people teaching/ways it is taught, but it's razor thin in places.

If you have to climb a mountain in the himalayas to find the one master teaching the one effective version of some style while the other 99% are selling snake oil, it's hard to separate them.
 

drop bear

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I'd tend to agree. I'd prefer it if this kind of test weren't expected to be 100%. How a person fails (and why) is a more certain test of their skill at something than how often they succeed. That latter measure can be inflated by over-cooperative partners.

You se it in krav and reality training a lot as well. Especially in scenario where you are in general likely to fail regardless what you do. Defending rear hugs is allways a good one because if you are of similar skill you probably wont get out.

I mean so much effort was put into realism here. Exept the actual realism of a partner really trying.


Actually it gets better as they go into sparring.
 

marques

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There is "scam" in every business. MA is no special. People is happy with "fake" training and instructors are feeding his families with the money from this business. All happy. Let them go.

But more than that, not everyone is looking for the ultimate self defence method. Many people is looking for fitness, fun, relaxation, sociabilization, balance, coordination, improving self-esteem (by fake black belts?) improving mental skill... So the "scam" school may fit perfectly the someone needs.

Finally, if you still think there are "scam" schools (as I do), go ahead and launch yourself a proper school. I stopped complaining when I realised the others may have less than perfect schools, but they did something. I don't (well, nothing for long time). They are the ones in the market, not me. Perhaps I am just focusing on the (apparently) bad things, but unaware of the good things.

Complaining does not help. Make "better" schools yourself. ;)

PS: I am pretty sure more people is injured in training or competing than applying "bad" techniques in real life. Very few, if anything, will be used in real life. Perfect techniques also fail. Untrained moves are also effective at times. No big deal. Except if you are a perfectionist.
 
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Gerry Seymour

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How can you call that "testing"? In that clip, nobody was trying to hurt him.

I try to knock your head off (or take you down). You try to knock my head off (or take me down). That's "testing".
I didn't say I thought it was a good test. But that was the purpose. And IMO that sort of test is not about defensive capability, in any case, but a movement concept.
 

Gerry Seymour

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The best result would be to compete some BJJ and compete other stuff. There is nothing wrong with facing a guy like that or even using that so long as it is not your whole thing.

Butt flopper submitted the other guy by the way. So laugh all you want at the concept. It worked.
This is where sport moves away from fighting effectiveness. What he did was effective for that context, but would get him in big trouble in MMA, and probably on the street.
 

Gerry Seymour

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There is a difference between a style and the people teaching/ways it is taught, but it's razor thin in places.

If you have to climb a mountain in the himalayas to find the one master teaching the one effective version of some style while the other 99% are selling snake oil, it's hard to separate them.
But does the difference have to be so difficult. Training methods can be changed, as surely as techniques.
 

Gerry Seymour

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You se it in krav and reality training a lot as well. Especially in scenario where you are in general likely to fail regardless what you do. Defending rear hugs is allways a good one because if you are of similar skill you probably wont get out.

I mean so much effort was put into realism here. Exept the actual realism of a partner really trying.


Actually it gets better as they go into sparring.
The biggest problem I've seen is a lack of differentiation between simulation (like you'd have someone feed a specific attack to practice a single-leg, rather than doing their best to bring down the person practicing) and sparring/live practice (where he does try his best). Too often, RBSD and self-defense training forgets to do the second part. It can be an easy trap to fall into. Also an easy one to get out of.
 
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Martial D

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But does the difference have to be so difficult. Training methods can be changed, as surely as techniques.
Well, 'can be' is worth less than the breath it takes to say it until it 'is'.

I can be a billionaire, but I'm not. :)

The problem is nobody wants to admit the thing that THEY do is bullshido, which is fine up until they both;
A) resist,with rhetoric, any attempt to test it

And

B)Market it as useable fighting or self defense and sell it to others.

At that point it's fraud, even if they themselves believe their own hype.
 

CB Jones

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I think it's funny that three individuals hit the little disagree button on this...effectively saying that it's perfectly fine to scam people.

QED.

No we are disagreeing with the idea that it is your job to set people straight about their style.

Again, it might be your opinion that their style is flawed but most people do not care about your opinion on their style.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I didn't say I thought it was a good test. But that was the purpose. And IMO that sort of test is not about defensive capability, in any case, but a movement concept.
Many MA discussions are as simple as "This MA style has plenty of skill developing but doesn't have enough skill testing." When you have pointed that out, some people may say that you are "style bashing".

One day I went back to my senior high school and met with my long fist young brothers, I suggested them that they should spar/wrestle as much as they could when they were still young. My long fist teacher didn't like my comment as if I was "style basing" my own long fist system.
 

Bill Mattocks

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Many are the people who believe a particular religion, and feel that they must not only share the good news of their belief, but tell non-believers what I'll is about to befall them if they continue their sinful ways. They truly believe they are doing good.

What they are doing is alienating people. Whether the person''s religion is right or wrong, no one likes to be told they're going to Hell, and such methods produce few converts.

You want to help people? Be the reason by example that others want to emulate you. And for those who don't see your greatness, well, it's a free country.
 
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Martial D

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Oh goody...another faceless nameless self appointed savior of martial arts on a quest to set us all straight.....yup let those who know what's best for us rise and save us from ourselves. :rolleyes:
Not all, but many. If you think the status quo of selling fantasy is ok, good for you. I find it reprehensible.
 
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Martial D

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Many are the people who believe a particular religion, and feel that they must not only share the good news of their belief, but tell non-believers what I'll is about to befall them if they continue their sinful ways. They truly believe they are doing good.

What they are doing is alienating people. Whether the person''s religion is right or wrong, no one likes to be told they're going to Hell, and such methods produce few converts.

You want to help people? Be the reason by example that others want to emulate you. And for those who don't see your greatness, well, it's a free country.
Who are you even talking to?

There is certainly a parallel to religious beliefs here, but that ain't it. The difference is you can't actually disprove the existence of gods the way you can with bullshido, yet the believers remain stalwart.
 

BrendanF

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Short of fighting every single individual you suspect of "selling fantasy"... it's perfectly analogous.

Four pages of people telling you "you ain't the MA police" and you still don't get it. Yes, there is rubbish being peddled to the uninformed. Yes, the bulk of MA training probably isn't truly combative. Nothing you've pointed out is revolutionary.

Caveat emptor. It is (much as it might stick in my craw to say it) exactly as Drop Bear said:

It is the understanding that effectivness really needs to be trained in a certain manner.

And that certain manner is honest.

It IS the 'understanding' that matters. This is an entirely individual thing, that you (Martial D) have no control over, or responsibility for.

'Styles' don't train - individuals do. Why waste time bashing styles? I've seen some styles that I personally think are inefficient trained to the point of efficacy by dedicated individuals... training honestly.

Any unprovoked criticism speaks more to the insecurity of the critical than the validity of the criticism, for me.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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There is certainly a parallel to religious beliefs here,...
That's a good way to look at it.

- You believe in your god. I believe in my god.
- You explain why you believe in your god. I explain why I believe in my god.
- You don't intend to change my opinion. I don't intend to change your opinion.

This way, the world will be peaceful, harmony, and balanced.
 

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