stupid question/wishful thinking

[pgsmith]

Hey y'all,
While I don't practice Toyama ryu, I have trained a lot with the guys in the video, and their head instructor Hataya Mitsuo sensei. If I remember rightly from conversations with those involved, the sparring in the video is not a normal part of Toyama ryu training. It is strictly something put together by Hataya sensei, the videos are from the Zen Nihon Battodo Renmei Tai Kai in Tokyo last year. Hataya sensei is highly ranked in chanbara also, but I believe that he felt that chanbara is too distant from actual sword arts, so he started messing around with the sparring thing. Don't take my words as gospel, it's only what I remember from conversations with those involved. The swords are cutting blades that Hataya sensei sells, with the edges rebated. I don't know what they did about the kissaki.

These actions give the impression of fast swordwork, and a feeling of success with the blade, but if real weapons were being used and it was a real combat situation, I think you would find that there were a large number of light cuts which could easily be recovered from, but very little in the way of decisive, commited cutting which is what you would need in an actual swordfight.

I agree that there were a number of light cuts, but they did not get points for those (there was a judge). Large cuts are what is the rule in MJER and MSR as well as Toyama ryu, since most of the techniques in Toyama were culled from Eishin ryu originally. However, there are a number of different koryu schools with a number of different approaches in their training. TSKSR is one of the older schools still extant and, as I understand it from an outsider's view, a good portion of their art is predicated on small quick cuts to vital areas. Mugai ryu also has a quite a number of smaller, restrained cuts in addition to the usual fully committed cuts.

 

[Langenschwert]

I can't recall whether you have any background in JSA, Langen, so please forgive me if I inadvertently insult your knowledge.

I was fortunate enough to do some HNIR with Watkin sensei, but it was only a 4 day seminar. When he comes around again, I plan to attend come Hell or high water.

It is just to clarify that in the Iaido schools particularly, there is hardly any 'blocking' as a Western swordsman would view it.

There really isn't any "blocking" in most medieval western styles either. The idea is to cut the other guy as he attempts to cut you. "Blocking" as most people understand it it not very useful. It usually gets you killed.

The essence of 'fencing', Japanese stylee, is reading timing, distance and intent and not being where your opponent wants to cut (or cutting faster than him from an unexpected direction e.g. kiriage).

Some techniques do call for the sword to be used as a 'barrier' (much like a 'hanging' block), ukenagashi being a classic example but, there being no 'light' cuts (all are fully committed), then the attacker uses tenouichi (essentially your grip) to stop the cut before contact occurs and try to recover his posture for either a follow up attack or a move to evade a counter-cut.

I did notice a larger degree of voiding without blade contact in the small amount of HNIR that I did than what I was used to.

Some schools do have 'fading' blocks wherein they retreat the 'defending' sword as the 'attacking' sword makes contact (Muso Shinden do this if I recall correctly) but the general ethos is that the katana is designed to do only a couple of things - slice and thrust. It is not designed to withstand being struck by another sword. This is one of the major ways in which it differs from something like the longsword.

Perhaps I wasn't explaining myself properly. My point was that training with steel is important due to the instances of blade contact that can occur when appropriate; it certainly does happen, even in Japanese fencing, even if it's not the primary tactic like it is in the German school, with its emphasis on the bind. I've seen JSA use blade contact to feel out an opponent when entering range. This is a critical moment in a fight... it can only be a good thing to try instances of blade contact out with steel since otherwise you get unnecessarily distorted information when using wood or shinai. Wood does not feel like steel. Shinai do not function like steel AT ALL.

My point is that steel is a vital training tool. It can and IS used safely in sparring by many groups. Train like you fight. If you are hypothetically training to fight with steel weapons, then part of your training should involve steel. If you can manage to spar safely with steel, it is an enlightening experience. It really does change a lot.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[pgsmith]

I was fortunate enough to do some HNIR with Watkin sensei, but it was only a 4 day seminar. When he comes around again, I plan to attend come Hell or high water.

Watkins sensei has already set the dates and locations for North America seminars. No other information has come out yet though.

The locations and dates for 2009:

Washington DC: July 29, 30, 31 and August 1.
Minneapolis MN: August 3, 4 and 5.
Calgary Canada: August 6, 7, 8 and 9.

Train like you fight.

Fortunately you can't do that in the sword arts, since none of us will actually ever engage in a real sword duel. While I agree that there is value to be had in steel sparring, I disagree with it being a necessity. The vast majority of Japanese sword schools have done quite well for themselves for hundreds of years without seeing the necessity. I will say that the gentleman that actually won the competition in the sparring clip said that it was a serious eye opener. He teaches Toyama ryu and also practices kendo, and he told me that the feel was totally different when someone was swinging a steel sword at you.

If I ever get the chance, I may try what they did in the video. I don't see myself going to any great lengths to make it happen though. I'm pretty happy with what we do with bokken.

 

[Sukerkin]

First off, chaps, I just wanted to say how great it is to be exchanging views with some fellow slingers of steel - I've been ploughing a somewhat lonely furrow here in the Sword Forums for quite a while :lol:.

It's good also to hear some insight into the world of the Western swordsman. I know a bit from previous conversations but you can never get enough information on these fascinating arts :rei:. For example, I had thought that there was a greater emphasis on blocking in WSA but it would appear that what I have seen on various video resources was instances of 'binding' - indeed we do get similar actions to this in some of the partner work in MJER (I'm thinking here of the 'captured' cuts, such as in kata five of the tachi uchi).

As to blade contact in the JSA tho', in MJER at least, the 'feeling out' that Langen mentioned is usually the sign of an inexperienced practitioner. One of the most common things I have to do with people when teaching them the partner forms is to get then to stop feeling and pressing with the sword - after all, any change of pressure when the blades are touching is a huge giveaway about what is going to happen.

 

[Aikicomp]

I can't recall whether you have any background in JSA, Langen, so please forgive me if I inadvertently insult your knowledge.

It is just to clarify that in the Iaido schools particularly, there is hardly any 'blocking' as a Western swordsman would view it.

The essence of 'fencing', Japanese stylee, is reading timing, distance and intent and not being where your opponent wants to cut (or cutting faster than him from an unexpected direction e.g. kiriage).

Some techniques do call for the sword to be used as a 'barrier' (much like a 'hanging' block), ukenagashi being a classic example but, there being no 'light' cuts (all are fully committed), then the attacker uses tenouichi (essentially your grip) to stop the cut before contact occurs and try to recover his posture for either a follow up attack or a move to evade a counter-cut.

Some schools do have 'fading' blocks wherein they retreat the 'defending' sword as the 'attacking' sword makes contact (Muso Shinden do this if I recall correctly) but the general ethos is that the katana is designed to do only a couple of things - slice and thrust. It is not designed to withstand being struck by another sword. This is one of the major ways in which it differs from something like the longsword.

You are correct, Muso Shinden Ryu does have a few of these kinds of "deflections" in the Shindo Munen Ryu standing set of kata.

Raito-gaeshi, Ukifune-gaeshi, Morashi-gaeshi, Inazumi-gaeshi and Doto-gaeshi come to mind, I believe that Gyakuto and Ryuto from Omori Ryu also has a similar deflection.

Michael

 

[Chris Parker]

And just to add to this all, Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu teaches to use the side/back of the blade (shinogi-ji and mune respectively) for deflecting actions, often coming over the top of the opponents sword; Kashima Shinryu teaches a method of "sticking" to the opponents' sword as a method of control; and of course, tsuba zerai turns up in kendo, who primarily took it from Ono-ha Itto Ryu, I believe.

And as for using metal blades being necessary, I am with Paul here in that it is a necessity. The bokken/bokuto has been used as a quite dangerous enough training aid for a number of centuries, with a few schools actually developing it as a weapon in and of itself (more impact than cutting). Let us not forget the famous story of Musashi and Sasaki Kojiro in the duel on Ganryu Island in which Musashi used a newly-carved bokken (shaped from an oar on the way to the duel) against Kojiro's three shaku long sharp metal sword. And winning quite decisively.

 

[HeisaaReborn]

i've dabbled in kendo & would like to study it more seriously once i relocate. i think i'd really like iaido as well, maybe better. but i was wondering if any japanese sword arts sparred without the restrictions in kendo? meaning a solid strike anywhere on the body counted, allowing controlled punches, kicks, & footsweeps...anything like that?

& if not, am i the only one who would be interested in training like that?

jf

You know it is all fun and games until someone loses........(pick a body part here) :jediduel:

Seriously check some of your local budo schools that offer sword - they will probably get into the sparring techniques as you describe however I do not really think I would be up to doing that with a real blade unless you are actually trying to kill someone. It is kind of like pointing a loaded firearm at someone's head for fun. However I don't see why you couldn't get the same training from a shinai or boken.

Budo

 

[Chris Parker]

And as for using metal blades being necessary, I am with Paul here in that it is a necessity.

Sorry, a bit too late to edit here... NOT a necessity, NOT. You miss one word, and everything goes haywire....

 

[Langenschwert]

Calgary Canada: August 6, 7, 8 and 9.

Sweet! I'll get a chance to use the Niten bokuto I just ordered.

I will say that the gentleman that actually won the competition in the sparring clip said that it was a serious eye opener. He teaches Toyama ryu and also practices kendo, and he told me that the feel was totally different when someone was swinging a steel sword at you.

Oh hell yes. It's an entriely different beast. The first time you see a piece of steel swinging at your noggin is quite an eye-opener. It certainly accustoms one to having some "fear of the blade", but helps one get used to the adrenaline dump as well. The tactile input is very different too. Bokken and wasters aren't swords. They're nicely carved baseball bats. They have their place, as I always start off my students with wasters initially. Even blunt steel isn't perfect, but for sparring, it's as close as we can get safely. There are WMA schools that do paired drills with sharps though. I think there's one Koryu that does as well, but that could be just rumour.

If I ever get the chance, I may try what they did in the video. I don't see myself going to any great lengths to make it happen though. I'm pretty happy with what we do with bokken.

If you ever make it to my class, you'd be more than welcome to try out some steel.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Langenschwert]

For example, I had thought that there was a greater emphasis on blocking in WSA...

In modern sport sabre fencing there are "blocks". In medieval systems there are displacing cuts rather than less effecient blocks. Look at 0:10 in the following video. Note how the incoming cut is countered by another cut effectively over top and hits the attacker on the head. Or the cut sets up a thrust, alternatively.

Look at the examples from 0:03 to 0:06, same idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsGU5KI1qJA&feature=related

Or the horizontal strike shown at 0:40 here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC5FIyfI8TA&feature=related

None of them are "blocks". They cut the opponent while displacing the incoming cut.

The idea is to fence as if your opponent didn't have a sword, knowing that if you close the line and strike him down, you'll be safe.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[HeisaaReborn]

Sorry, a bit too late to edit here... NOT a necessity, NOT. You miss one word, and everything goes haywire....

Trust me I think you and I have learned that with me the past couple of days.

 

[jarrod]

i don't have much to contribute, just wanted to say i'm enjoying reading the opinions of experts from different styles.

i was going to start another thread for this question, but i might as well post it here. what are the startup costs for kendo vs. iaido? unfortunately cost is going to be a factor in what i train as well. the monthly fees for the two places i'm looking are about the same, but i'm kind of worried about committing to buying bogu, hakama, etc. i don't have to have top of the line equipment but i would like to own my own kit.

i've been looking at the rocky mountain swordplay guild to, unfortunately they are farther away & more expensive i hope i can visit them though.

jf

 

[pgsmith]

If you ever make it to my class, you'd be more than welcome to try out some steel.

Thanks for the invite, but unfortunately my odds of making it to the Calgary area are pretty much nil I'm afraid. I'll file it away just in case though!

My only interaction with you European sword guys was at an event that was held in my area of Texas a few years ago. They had several days worth of seminars with top level instructors from from all over. My friend Dave Wilson of Mugen Dachi was doing a seminar on cutting tatami, and got me a pass to come out and help them. It was really interesting watching the various seminars and seeing the different styles. Very impressive really. Most of the groups were practicing with blunts. I did encounter an interesting side effect during the cutting seminar though. Most of the participants had a hard time cutting tatami without a lot of coaching. Even the very experienced instructors that were in the seminar had difficulties. What happened was that they would tend to stop the cut at the target, rather than after the target. When I'd point it out, they would compensate by overpowering it and ruining their basic swing. It bugged me for a while before I finally came to a conclusion that seemed reasonable to me. I felt that they had so much trouble because they were very used to swinging steel, but they were equally as used to stopping that swing before damaging their training partner. I think I convinced most of them that they needed to include more actual cutting in their classes to try and overcome the tendency. So, like any training method, steel has its down sides as well as its upsides.

Gotta say though that just cutting stuff is a lot more fun with a bastard sword than a katana since you can cut a mat on both front and backswing.

what are the startup costs for kendo vs. iaido? unfortunately cost is going to be a factor in what i train as well.

Unfortunately, the sword arts are NOT a cheap date! Either one is going to add up to some serious coin (400 to 600 for kit of sufficient quality). The good part is that most clubs will have loaner gear so that you only need to purchase a piece at a time. If you gather your gear a little at a time and use dojo loaners for the stuff you don't have yet, you will eventually end up with your own good quality gear, and it won't dump you into the poor house. Full gear costs for kendo are probably just a little higher than iaido, but they both depend upon how good of quality gear you want to get. It's easily done with either one, (and pretty normal really) to start out with nothing more than the monthly dojo fee and comfortable clothes. You'd need to discuss this with the sensei of the schools though.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

what are the startup costs for kendo vs. iaido? unfortunately cost is going to be a factor in what i train as well. the monthly fees for the two places i'm looking are about the same, but i'm kind of worried about committing to buying bogu, hakama, etc. i don't have to have top of the line equipment but i would like to own my own kit.

Iai:
Keikogi and hakama: $100-$200 depending on grade of uniform.
Bokken: $20-$50
Iai sword (unedged blade, unsure of technical name): probably at least $300.
Shinken (edged sword for cutting): 500+, depending on how traditional you want to get. Mine is folded steel and was about two grand.

With iai, from what I understand, you don't start off using anything but a bokken until your instructor tells you you're ready for a steel blade. Start-up costs at a minimum would be between a hundred to two hundred. An iai practitioner could tell you more accurately than I can.

Kendo:
Keikogi and hakama: $100-$200 depending on grade of uniform.
Bokken: $20-$50
Shinai: $30-$300 (between 30 and 100 on average)
Bogu; machine made: $400-$1500 (mine was about middle of the road at 650.00)
Bogu; hand made: $1500+

Once again, you don't usually get to spar right away, depending on the school, so you'd be looking at at least $160 just to get in the door. Bogu will come probably by green belt, if not sooner. Most kendo schools don't do much with steel blades, so I'd say that your initial startup with kendo will be higher, while the overall cost of Iai could be higher.

Though with kendo, you'd also have to factor in gear maintainance issues that will never arise with Iai; bogu fasteners and such wear out, shinai break, stay with it long enough and you may be enticed into that 3000.00 handmade 1.0mm set of bogu.

3000.00 bogu aside, I've dealt with all the rest in kendo.

Daniel

 

[Sukerkin]

Aye, it is a truism that sword arts can turn out to be prohibitively expensive compared to the empty-handed arts. It is in no small part why quite a few people turn up to a class because they're enthralled with the 'mystique of the blade' and never show up again when they realise that a proper sword costs more than their car .

To begin with, a bokken is fine but most sensei like to encourage their students to trade up to an iaito pretty quickly so as to avoid training in some bad habits that using a 'stick' can cause.

A cheap iaito would do for a students journey through their kyu grades but once your skill develops you really need a tool commensurate to it. So I always say to someone starting out to buy the best they can afford, otherwise they'll only spend more in the long run buying several swords of increasing quality.

Have a look here for an idea of costs:

http://www.tozandoshop.com/category_s/2.htm

For the clothing, again, getting the best you can afford is preferable. I buy my hakama, iaigi, obi and sageo from E-Bogu (it's their kit I'm wearing in my 'album' pictures here at MT):

http://www.e-bogu.com/Top_quality_Japanese_Iaido_Equipment_s/58.htm

However, when I started out I had no proper kit at all. I had a newly bought white karate gi (my black kung fu stuff had mouldered in the wardrobe and I didn't know what I had to wear so I bought what I could find ). I knew enough to have bought a bokken beforehand but didn't know enough to deny I had a 'real' sword when sensei asked if I had one .

I soon realised that the dreadful wallhanger I had was not sufficient unto the task when I brought it along at sensei's request and again {it was elaborately decorated with silver dragons for crying out loud :faints:}. However, for a change with such dross, it was sturdy enough for sensei to allow me to use it. I presisted with it, despite the smiles of the Katori chaps who share the dojo with us, until I had the money to buy a top-grade iaito and a 'cheap' grade live blade (Paul Chen Practical Plus) - that pair, plus the wakizashi I later bought, cost me over £1000.

A couple of things I will say are absolutely essential are a broad, sword arts, obi and a pair of knee pads. Without the former it'll be a nightmare keeping your sword at the proper angle in your belt and without the latter you'll end up with bleeding knees like I did - not fun, tho' it did prove my committment .

 

[Hand Sword]

I have a stupid question about Kendo training as well. I know that the norm is to have no footwear on during training, but, is there acceptable footwear for Kendo or Iaido training?

 

[Chris Parker]

For the sword arts, as in many traditional Koryu systems, you may be allowed to wear a type of footwear called "tabi". Check with the instructor first, some may not let you, but I'm sure most won't mind. Just make sure you get the indoor kind, with cotton, leather, or suede soles, and that the floor you are training on is appropriate (they were originally designed with tatami mats in mind), rather than the rubber-soled outdoor ones (jika tabi).

This type of footwear will probably be more acceptable for Iaido, but could be fine for both. Some Kendo schools also use a type of half-tabi, which cover (and help support) the fromt of your foot, allowing you to emphasise keeping your weight on the front (balls) of your feet, which Kendo practitioners use to ensure a forward-driving motion to their movements, as well as a springy, bouncy type of step.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have a stupid question about Kendo training as well. I know that the norm is to have no footwear on during training, but, is there acceptable footwear for Kendo or Iaido training?

I can only speak from my own experience. Unless a student has some foot issue that requires some sort of covering, I've never seen it allowed in a straight kendo school, but I have seen the tabi that Chris described at a Jinenkan dojo. To be fair, the issue hasn't really come up for the most part.

The only times I've seen it even come up at our school was with a young lady who had to wear an orthopedic shoe of some sort in order to really walk, and a gentleman who had some issue with one of his feet and said that he needed to wear some kind of sock.

The young lady I had a huge amount of respect for. She started when I was about a blue belt and stuck with it through black. She had a very hard time with mobility, but she got to where her footwork was pretty okay, and her bladework was quite good.

Daniel

 

[Chris Parker]

Just had a quick check. The half-tabi I refered to are listed on Tozando's website under Kendo: Protectors as toe protectors. So I guess, if you need them, you can use them. But I would check first.