Strength vs Endurance for novice in wrestling

Discussion in 'Grappling / Brazilian Ju Jitsu / Wrestling' started by mmenza, Feb 1, 2016.

  1. mmenza

    mmenza White Belt

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    I started to train in freestyle wrestling as amateur, I has low weight and low endurance. What is more important for me, train aerobic endurance first (jogging, rowing, swiming etc) or train strength and increase weight (barbell training)?
     
  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Aerobic if there are weight classes.
     
  3. kuniggety

    kuniggety Black Belt

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    Both but I agree with drop bear that aerobic is best. You can't do much if you're gassing out. Both your muscular strength and cardiovascular strength will also increase by continuing to grapple.
     
  4. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    On that note we are doing body weight stuff Thad does a bit of both.
     
  5. Hanzou

    Hanzou Senior Master

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    Aerobics all the way. Build up the tank. Nothing sucks more than grappling when you're completely wiped out.
     
  6. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    I think if you keep wrestling you're going to get both anyway. I hate wrestlers, they never get tired.

    Keep wrestling, bro!

    And welcome to MT.
     
  7. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

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    Both are good, but endurance is more important than strength. However wrestling works anaerobic endurance as much as aerobic. Forget slow jogging. Do interval training and wind sprints.
     
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  8. Charlemagne

    Charlemagne Purple Belt

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    Getting stronger will also improve your local muscular endurance, which is the primary endurance attribute people are discussing here. Plus, it will increase your bone density as well as the thickness and integrity of your connective tissue, decreasing injury risk.
     
  9. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Senior Master

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    IMO, for wrestling, the "strength" is more important than the "endurance".

    If you can take your opponent down through the 1st contact, you don't need much endurance. For example, if your head lock is powerful enough to crash your opponent's spine, you can take all his defense and counters away at that moment, you don't need to wrestle with him for 2 hours. If your head lock is also strong enough to crash your opponent's skull, cause pain, and make him to tap out on the ground quickly, you also don't need to play ground game with him for 2 hours.

    Have you ever experienced that when your opponent gets hold on you and you can't even move? In jacket wrestling, if you have a pair of monster grips, when you get hold of your opponent, your opponent can't break your grips, can't attack you with any technique, when and how you are going to take him down will be totally up to you.

    The problem is the strength is much difficult to develop than the endurance. You can't develop your strong arm strength and strong finger strength without going through some hard, painful, tedious, and long time physical training. But after you have developed it, you will find it to be very "convenient" for the rest of your life.

    Besides when you get older, it's much easier to "maintain" your strength than to maintain your endurance.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2016
  10. JR 137

    JR 137 Master Black Belt

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    You do realize that none of those techniques you mention are legal in freestyle wrestling, right?

    You make a good point about being stronger will definitely help. However, while wrestling does indeed need strength, being of average strength can be adequate for a beginner. Once you're out of gas, you're done. And you won't accomplish much in practice if you're trying to catch your breath the entire time.

    Yes, it's an older thread the op probably isn't paying attention to much anymore. However...

    Interval training. Quickest way to increase aerobic and anaerobic capacity, and shreds body fat better than anything else.

    6 minutes may not seem like a long time, but when you're on the mat and out of breath, 6 minutes is an eternity!
     
  11. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Senior Master

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    I'm not talking about freestyle wrestling. I'm talking about Chinese wrestling.

    In the following clip, he used "head lock leg blocking" throw to take his opponent down. That gave him a nice side mount position. If he could use his head squeeze to make his opponent to tap out, his endurance to wrestle 15 rounds may not be needed.

    If you can knock out your opponent by your 1st punch, you don't need to box him for 15 rounds.

     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2016
  12. JR 137

    JR 137 Master Black Belt

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    The OP trains in and asked about freestyle wrestling.
     
  13. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Senior Master

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    I don't train freestyle myself but one of my students does. Here is an article written by him. He is the #3 ranking wrestler of the Michigan State in US who has 15 years in the western wrestling.

    Please notice the following statement.

    2. In freestyle, ...A leg block headlock done well would be a 5 point throw in freestyle, but you have to maintain contact with your opponent all the way to the mat to get those points.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is an overview of the primary differences in Western wrestling styles. In the USA there are 3 main branches:

    1. Collegiate (also called folk style)
    2. Freestyle
    3. Greco-Roman

    1. Collegiate is the college/high school style. The rules are different between college and high school regarding intensity, period length, overtime, and some scoring. In high/middle school the rules are per state. In college the rules are national.

    2. Freestyle is an internationally practiced style. There is a little variance in scoring/rules depending on the year and from state to state. Freestyle is an olympic sport and FILA endorsed. FILA is the international federation of associated wrestling styles and they now cover some "combat" grappling forms. USA Wrestling also governs freestyle and greco here, and they now have beach wrestling, which is like BJJ. But not mainstream like Freestyle and Greco. Freestyle is an olympic style.

    3. Gereco-Roman style is more popular in other countries compared to popularity of freestyle here. Greco is basically just freestyle with out use of legs. Greco is also an olympic sport, but America does not do as well in it in the olympics as they do in Freestyle.

    Basic differences, in my opinion, having competed in the state, national, and college levels in collegiate/freestyle:

    1. Collegiate/folk style is primarily concerned with dominance on the mat/ground, compared to the others. 2 points are awarded for any takedown, which is determined by control once both guys are on the mat. An escape back to standing is only worth 1 point. A reversal where the controlled man takes top control of the opponent is 2 points. In college there are points awarded for riding time. So if you get taken down, then get a reversal, then ride your opponent for 1 minute you get 1 point extra and win. Much of the time training is devoted to mat work: riding, tilting, pinning, reversal. A pin is a total win. To pin, the winner must demonstrate control of the opponent on his back (touching the mat flat) for about 3 seconds. Also, most throws are illegal in collegiate. In college you can be much rougher than in high school. But you must demonstrate total control through a "throw" or it is potentially dangerous and illegal. So rear embrace throw, leg blocking, and front cut, standing fireman's carry type of stuff is illegal in collegiate.

    2. In freestyle, the game is about back exposure, and if both men are on the mat with no specific point moves being generated, the ref will stand both guys up quickly (about 10-15 seconds). In this style, points can be scored many ways, often before a takedown occurs. A leg block headlock done well would be a 5 point throw in freestyle, but you have to maintain contact with your opponent all the way to the mat to get those points. A rear embrace or standing fireman's or a bowing throw would also be 5 point throws if done well, 4 if not. If you did a bowing throw just like in shuai chiao but remained standing you would get 2 points for back exposure on your opponent, but would not get the extra points for the takedown, control, or finesse. If you did a single leg, then sweep the remaining leg so the opponent falls to his back, then fall on him that would be a 3 point takedown. 1 for the takedown, 2 for back exposure. Also, if you are on the mat, then roll your opponent over even if you don't have takedown control you still get 2 points for exposing your opponents back to the mat. A pin in freestyle is also a total victory, but in freestyle you only have to touch your opponents inner shoulder blades to the mat for a split second to score a pin. So in freestyle there really are no true sacrifice throws, and one good headlock without the root can be an instant win. So in collegiate if a guy shoots a double leg, you sprawl, grind his face to the mat, then hope to get behind him to score a takedown. In freestyle you borrow his force, throw him over your shoulder with a front headlock or crotch throw and score 2 points instantly.

    3. Greco-Roman is basically just freestyle wrestling, but you cannot use your legs or touch your opponents legs. Basically Greco is to Freestyle what boxing is to Muy Thai.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2016
  14. JR 137

    JR 137 Master Black Belt

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    Thanks for the dissertation in styles of western wrestling. I wrestled (folk style) for quite a few years and coached it for several more.

    No idea what any of this has to do with the topic at hand. Yes, if you can get a quick pin you don't need to rely on conditioning. As a novice (as the OP claimed to be), one shouldn't count on getting very many quick pins. If anything, a novice should count on getting pinned quickly. There's a very steep success curve in competitive wrestling.
     
  15. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    There has been more evidence recently about the benefits of high intensity interval training.

    Catalyst: Fit in 6 Minutes a week - ABC TV Science
     
  16. Skullpunch

    Skullpunch Green Belt

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    If you're talking about what to do in the gym - strength. But don't overdo it because you're getting a lot of muscular work from wrestling as it is and it's easy to overtrain. Look up a twice per week basic strength training program, that should be plenty. There's a pretty solid one on T-nation.

    The best way to build endurance for wrestling is to wrestle. Maybe a couple of days of interval training per week could help but the vast majority of your stamina training should be specific to the activity you're training for. Training to murder a 10k isn't going to be much help to your wrestling.

    If you want to incorporate running into your program I would recommend something along the lines of the below parameters twice per week, 3x at most. Again, don't overdo this. I can't stress it enough, the vast majority of your stamina for wrestling needs to come from wrestling.

    Incline Treadmill Sprints
    [​IMG]
    Speed:
    Beginner: 9.0-10.0 mph
    Intermediate: 10.0-11.0 mph
    Advanced: 11.0-12.5+ mph

    Incline:
    Beginner: 1.0-3.5%
    Intermediate: 3.5-6.5%
    Advanced: 6.5-8.0+%

    Work: 10-25 seconds (variable dependent on speed/incline) at your top speed

    Rest:
    Beginner: 45-60 seconds
    Intermediate: 30-45 seconds
    Advanced: 20-30 seconds

    (I like to simplify the work/rest to 20 seconds on and 40 seconds off for the sake of simplicity and focus more on speed, incline, and number of reps than anything).

    Rounds:
    Beginner: 4-5
    Intermediate: 6-7
    Advanced: 8-10

    Total Time: 4-10 minutes (dependent on above variables)
     

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