Stick techniques

[r.severe]

Jeff you stated, "You can see quite a difference in Hatsumi Sensei's movement at a Tai Kai, for example, and in a class at Honbu."

I have a very indept colection of Japanese classroom tapes.
I really see little difference in taikai, daikomyosai and normal classroom footage persay. The training is very light and there is no feeling of 'real time' fighting stress during the footage that I have. But this might be because the Japanese knew I would be watching the tapes.
One point is I have NEVER heard (or seen) of sparring from any Japanese instructor in any tapes, personally or otherwise.

Fights are normally not seen or taped when you are attacked in a street fight. As for the question on if I was taped, seen or stood outside a police station during a fight or any kind is totally funny and an immature question. I will not answer that one.

But I will say my first one was at the age of 10 years old against a young man with a 4 foot stick. The second was with a person with a ax handle. So what? So do and some don't.. I did.. did that, past and gone..

I believe the best thing to do is.. if you have something to show then show it.. stop telling people about it.. go to the post if need be. Hey make a video tape of yourslf and get it out to show your skills and help others.. if not then what's the big deal about others doing so? If you are NOT willing to go through the trouble of doing it yourself and always talk about dad, your brother, sister, the guy next door, some book, a man on a video tape or some Japanese grand booba... then what can you really say? Nothing really because you are not the one doing.. you are watching it being done..

There is no problem putting on some armor (or not) and sparring with sticks..
Do it or just talk about others doing it..

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Jay Bell]

Fights are normally not seen or taped when you are attacked in a street fight. As for the question on if I was taped, seen or stood outside a police station during a fight or any kind is totally funny and an immature question. I will not answer that one.

Having trouble reading? I asked for documentation, meaning proof, that you have fought with sticks. I said nothing about standing outside of a police station. But, much like your plethora-list of arts that you have videos of, claiming to study, I guess we'll just have to take your word for it.

 

[ronhughen]

Having trouble reading? I asked for documentation, meaning proof, that you have fought with sticks. I said nothing about standing outside of a police station. But, much like your plethora-list of arts that you have videos of, claiming to study, I guess we'll just have to take your word for it.

Maybe Mr. Bell has trouble reading . . . I said I witnessed Ralph fight a guy with sticks . . . that's a kind of proof, right? Aside form someone saying they saw it, its true you will not find the kind of documentation you are seeking. Either you need to be more open minded, or resign yourself to the fact that you will not be concretely convinced that Ralph has been in a real fight with a stick (and jsut because you cannot be convinced does not prove it has not happened).

 

[Jay Bell]

Uhm...I read fine. I was clarifying my original question, because *RALPH* seems to have misread it. You answered it just fine.

 

[r.severe]

Jay, if I were asked where the air is by a child.. I would walk away.

I would like for you to prove you are in fact you and have experience living.
But what a waste of time. Much like giving you an answer. Waste of time.

I hope somehow you try to find some peaceful meaning in what I am saying before you twsit this into a vortex of BS.

Now Jay, do you have something to add to 'stick fighting' or 'stick techniques' or are you just posting to get a rise out of everyone?

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Jay Bell]

If it walks like a Dux and acts like a Dux...

 

[Don Roley]

Just as an aside here,

If you get into a confrontation involving weapons, in most areas you must report it to the police department. Even in cases where you need not, because of the chance that the other side will come back and report their side of the story, you should go to the police as soon as possible.

And anytime two people agree to something, it is not combat but rather sport like the NHB.

So a police report of an incident is quite a natural thing to expect when some sort of weapon is involved. If there is none, alarm bells go off the same way they do when I read things by Frank Dux and Ashida Kim.

Well, I wouldn't call myself an "insider." I've seen this comment about "no sparring in Japan" floating around for a while, and I wanted to point out that I have seen a definite difference in the way the Shihan train with you once they get to know you. I'm sure this is much more the case for Don or one of the other Japan residents.

Well, yes. One of the main advantages of going to a Japanese shihan week after week is that they can set things up in an ABCDEF type of progression. You learn "B" only after you have gotten down the neccasary foundation you get in "A" down perfect. When visitors pull in, the teachers rarely knows even if they will see the person ever again in their class. One of my teachers summed it up that he can be real specific when there is only live- in students, but he has to give people things that they can work on and explore on their own if they are merely visiting.

And Hatsumi used to do sparring a long time ago. A student once used me as a translator because he had heard about it. The Japanese teacher said that it was true that they used to do sparring, but it was largely dropped after Hatsumi found it was causing bad habits in the students.

He stressed that in the old days Hatsumi would occasionally bring together the students with perfect taijutsu who showed up to class every week for months on end and while Hatsumi watched the students would go at it.

Then when there were many foriegn students coming in for short periods of time he found that the ones who were sparring in their home countries, did not have perfect taijutsu and were not within his range of corrections were actually developing bad habits.

By bad habits I think he means things that are good for sparring, but bad for actual combat. I have seen this happen with stick sparring at Ayase. The guys who Hatsumi called up to demonstrate free form in front of the class were under great pressure to hit the other guy. I could see that most of them were using the stick not like a heavy oak jo, but rather as a PVC pipe covered in padding. The were so intent on hitting the other guy and not be embarrassed in front of the entire class that their realism went out the window and they were content with taps rather than blows that could have done damage. And their footwork, etc all showed bad habits that crept out under stress. The guys who continued to use the stick like a jo rather than a PVC pipe lost to those who did not.

And since you fight as you train, all these bad habits would be reinforced if they had been done frequently.

I have had sessions where I did not know what was coming at me in my regular classes in Japan. I would not call them sparring since there was little emphisis on who won. (Who cares how many times you "win"- it only goes to feed the ego.) More often, one or more guys were the agressors and one guy was on the defensive. My Japanese teacher watches these infrequent session like a hawk and for the next few weeks afterwards will develop drills and such that he wants us to do to try to repair the bad habits we show.

But the biggest difference may be that if the teacher knows what you can take from long, close relationships, he knows just how far he can push you without pushing you too far. I have litterally thought I was going to die a few times in class. It wasn't during any type of sparring. It was during kata practice with weapons. I do not want others (i.e. 12 year old wanna-be ninja) to duplicate this stuff on their own so I will leave off the details, but the best adreneline stress training I have gone through has been during kata practice with a senior Japanese student. I really learned to deal with the stress of combat and to overcome the problems that adrenaline in the bloodstream can make. Later sparring in other arts were very, very tame by comparison. No matter how eager the other guy was to hurt me, it did not phase me as much as the kata practice with my senior had.

 

[Don Roley]

I have used a 3ft, 4ft, and Kali sticks in several altercations. There are no records of this, as I didn't stick around to fill out any police reports......

I do not think there will be a problem as long as you do not expect to be treated as experienced in real fighting. If there is no proof like a police report of the incident, then everyone is in their rights to treat it like it never happened outside of your imagination.

Otherwise, we will see an invasion of the Virtual Sensei again.

Whenever Frank Dux/ Sojobow shows up and makes claims, we demand proof and when they refuse everyone laughs at them and treats them like a liar. It would not be consistent to let others make claims and then treat them as if they were telling the truth without demanding the same amount of proof we do from Ashida Kim, Ronald Duncan. We make fun of these people because the make claims and refuse to back it up. If no one tries to say that you should listen to them because they are experienced, and then refuse to show proof for that experience, we will be able to keep the peace.

 

[r.severe]

Hey guys, it's ok not to be a fighter or not to have fighting experience.
Don't get mad, upset about it or feel the need to justify yourselves by being a jester. Many in the martial arts don't even know the feeling of a good pounding.. much less a few good poundings..

Just face the truth.
Get on with your life.
It's OK..

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Don Roley]

Hey guys, it's ok not to be a fighter

Ah, but you see I am a survivor, not a fighter. Anyone that knows the true meaning of those words will understand.

I do not fight for money, rank, ego or nice little trophies to brag about. If I fight, it is to get home at the end of the day and keep my family safe.

I do not want people to admire me, respect me, call me proffesor/sensei/sifu, give me money or think of me as any kind of a bad ****. I study this art in order to die in bed, either of old age or in the midst of sex. (Prefereble both.)

As I get older, I realize that the best things in life are not as Conan said they were, to see your enemies dead before you and hear the lamanting of their women.

No, for me the true joy in life is to come home, walk my dog, play with my kids and kiss my wife at the end of the day. Caviar and Champagne dreams it is not, but it is a life I fine complete contentment with. I will only fight when I need to do so in order to get home.

If I can run, I have and I will and have felt no shame in doing so.

But if I can't run, I know that I am capable of terrible things in order to see my family again.

The martial arts and the internet is filled with people who need to be thought of as "fighters" and such. Anyone who has met a few survivors is struck by how little they need to crow how dangerous they are. For them, there is nothing to prove. Instead of war stories that they can't back up with proof, they carry around cards of the lawyers they keep on retainer.

Fighter? Who the heck would want to be a fighter? The only thing I am interested in is getting home to see my family. I need to be a survivor in order to do that and that is a hell of a lot different from someone who gets into a ring and/or runs around trying to convince others just how dangerous they are.

 

[ronhughen]

Mr. Roley,

:idunno: I'm sure you don't realize you are doing the same thing you are accusing Ralph shihan of. You say you don't accept that he is what he says he is because he cannot provide you with "proof", something you have defined in your own terms so that it will be impossible for you to actually be presented with satisfactory proof. I have asked you essentially for "proof" that substantiats some of the things you say . . . my real question being . . . "is this guy really all he says or is he more of a martial voyer with lofty words but, as is all too common on these kinds of forums, nothing to back it up?" (such inconsistancey is pretty common in the world . . . a doctor friend who is a christian told me the other day "I don't beleive anything I can't actually see" . . . which struck me as odd) You are quick to take the high ground, put youself on a pedistal above all of us (that's the feeling I get from a lot of your posts), but have not offered anything that I can base any respect on, other than your hard to swallow words. At least Ralph shihan has information out here for people to see, and pick on if they choose (his website, for example). It's fine that you don't want to be a fighter, I don't really like the idea of fighting either, I have the same sort of attitude about thinking of my self as a runner first, a fighter only if I have to. But I train with Ralph shihan because I want a teacher with that perspective, someone that knows about it so can direct a training curriculum that might prepare me to deal with a fight if I need to fight. He isn't trying to convince anyone that he is dangerous (you should read his posts more carefully), just that he has experiences of fighting and those experiences have given him a kind of enlightenment most of the rest of us lack . . . experience based enlightenment is the crux of why you say training with the Japansese is so valuable, right? So, I don't understand your attitude.

Since you hae tended to avoid or ignore my questions I don't expect you to respond to this one, but I am curious why you seem to really need to "sell" Japan, and the idea that if you don't study in Japan you can't be really learning anything of value? I have my ideas of why, but I'd like to know what you think.

So, if you won't tell me more about your background and give me some "proof" justifying where your comments come from, I have to put it all into the category of "primadonic pontification", not any kind of expert opinion as you are trying to pass it off.

 

[Don Roley]

Mr. Roley,

:idunno: I'm sure you don't realize you are doing the same thing you are accusing Ralph shihan of. You say you don't accept that he is what he says he is because he cannot provide you with "proof", something you have defined in your own terms so that it will be impossible for you to actually be presented with satisfactory proof. I have asked you essentially for "proof" that substantiats some of the things you say . . . my real question being . . . "is this guy really all he says or is he more of a martial voyer with lofty words but, as is all too common on these kinds of forums, nothing to back it up?"

No. You see. I do not make claims and then refuse to back them up. You have asked me questions that are similar to what Sharp Phil wrote about in Internet Troll Defense Mechanisms when he wrote the following.

WHO ARE YOU TO CHALLENGE ME?

As I wrote in How To Spot a Virtual Sensei, VTGs and VSs are bullies who believe force is the appropriate solution to every disagreement. Part of the psychology behind this attitude is the logically flawed notion that no criticism is valid unless voiced by someone of higher rank or longer experience. When called on their claims or questioned on their opinions, VTGs and VSs often will demand to know the rank, style, and years of experience possessed by the critic. If this information is provided, the VS or VTG will then dismiss the criticism as coming from someone who is his or her "junior" in the arts. This does not invalidate the criticism, of course – you need not be able to beat someone up, nor need you possess a belt one shade darker, for your opinion to be logically and factually valid – but in the minds of the VS and VTG it is all the rebuttal necessary. Anyone who has ever attended a commercial McDojo has seen this attitude displayed, too, by the small percentage of students strutting about condescending to those whose belts are at least one shade lighter.

I live in Japan. I have trained here for several years. Several people who have verifiable proof to their claims of street encounters know and accept me. I can prove all of this.

Now, if someone tries to make a claim that they have some insight into stick fighting because of personal experience, then it is their responsibility to back those claims up. I can point to and prove my experiences in Japan, etc. I make no other claims. I make no claims to things I am not willing to back up.

No one person has all the possible experiences in combat. As such, we learn form other people's experience when we can. But due to the number of internet frauds and phonies, we need to be vigilent for those that make inflated claims and refuse to back them up. Any encounter involving a weapon should be backed up with something along the line of a police report. And really, I am not willing to give the time of day to anyone who claims to be a experienced street fighter but does not have a lawyer on retainer.

 

[Enson]

To my knowlege he does not have a police record, but I did get to witness him deal with a guy that came into the school talking a bunch of poop, and being exgtreemly challenging . . . Ralph shihan tried to ignore the guy, but he was persistent . . . after the guy signed all the appropriate papers, they went at each other with nunchaku. Poor guy!

-Mini

i guess the most sensible thing to present would be those "appropriate papers." in my opinion one trains so they don't have to fight. i like the term "survivor" and i think i will start using it. (you can even play the song while you train. ((song by desiny's child)) i enjoy sparring because it gives you a reality check on how the body moves and bends when applying technique, but i believe form is very important on understanding how your body moves and bends. the thing with stick training is that it doesn't have to be a certain size. i train with all sizes (width, length) because you never know what will be availible. taking a walking stick when you hike is a good idea because you never know when a band of ninja will jump out and get you! hee hee!:jedi1: (joke) but you can get a tree branch off the floor when you are in a park somewhere. i remember seeing this kid (teenager) chasing this other kid with a branch right outside my office window. its all part of the great unknown of real combat. so use bats or golf clubs whatever. whether its a bo, jo, or even dough:whip: (joke)... imo train with it!

 

[Kreth]

use bats or golf clubs whatever.

Sorry, my golf game's bad enough without bent clubs...

Jeff

 

[r.severe]

Hey maybe you can twist this one too..., it's ok not to be a survivor of many conflicts or not to have survivor experience in street conflicts.
Don't get mad, upset about it or feel the need to justify yourselves by being a jester. Many in the martial arts don't even know the feeling of a good pounding.. much less a few good poundings..

Just face the truth.
Get on with your life.
It's OK..

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Kreth]

Hey maybe you can twist this one too...

Um... was that directed at me and my golf club comment?

Jeff

 

[Enson]

Um... was that directed at me and my golf club comment?

Jeff

i don't know. mr. severe who is going to twist it? i don't quite understand the meaning of it. (not trying to offend) how can you not get mad at not being a survivor? (a real question. not in anyway intended for a harsh rebuttle) my thoughts are if you don't survive you die. and i guess you can't get mad if you're dead. please clarify.
:idunno:
peace

 

[r.severe]

Donny twist the post ti fit his agenda.
You can change the words and still it reminas the same statement..
Those who have no experience or cannot just sit on the sidelines and yell a lot about those who do have experience and can fight, survive, etc..

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Don Roley]

Um... was that directed at me and my golf club comment?

Ok Jeff, you owe me a new monitor. Even with all the amusing puffing up of chests and such you see everyday on the internet, your quick witted remark was the one that caught me with my morning cup of java halfway into a gulp.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Gentlemen,
There have been some concerns with some sniping going on. Please, keep it professional and take the personal issues elsewhere.

Thank you.