Steven Lopez got KO'd in Mexico!!!

[Daniel Sullivan]

The only thing that hurts the art is the constant complaining by people who have ax to grind with the sport side of TKD.

While I agree that this does not help, it is by far the least of what hurts taekwondo as an art. Rampant commercialization at the expense of the art in pursuit of short term or individual financial gain is the arts biggest enemy. This is independent of the sportive debate.

Daniel

 

[Archtkd]

This could be futile, but can’t we all please get along and try to stop this discussion from turning into one of those: us (art TKD) versus them (sport TKD) threads.

ATC , jk199 and some other folks have said some very instructive thing about Aaron Cook’s KO kick, to which little can be added. There can be some debate about whether the Brit’s jumping double or scissor kick was clean, but it was a stock of the trade Taekwondo sparring kick. That kick that can be easily learned by good soccer players, who should know how to fall properly while also hitting a target.

As noted by others, Cook’s kick was also fast, powerful and most of all accurate, a thing we all endeavor to learn or teach in Taekwondo. Accuracy is the key word here, and I think Mr. Cook’s kick – despite his fall – landed squarely on Lopez’s jaw or temple.

There also can argument about Steve Lopez’ blocking abilities or lack thereof, but again, Mr. Cook destabilized him with the first kick, which is what a double/scissor kick is supposed to do. We throw or teach our students to use the first kick to set up the second. The normal expectation is that an opponent will block the first kick, and fail to evade or block the second more powerful kick.

In Taekwondo, the first kick in a jumping double/scissor sequence – when thrown well, with a conditioned foot – also has been known to discourage blocking, because it can be purposefully used to break or injure an opponents blocking hand. Good Taekwondo blocks, to turn the coin, also can be used to discourage some kickers, by injuring or breaking parts of their feet..

The short of all this is that we could all use a good Taekwondo jumping double/scissor kick on the street or on the mat.

 

[Carol]

Not to mention the fact that we may be watching the next superstar. One of the biggest names around just got KO'ed by a 17 year old from the UK. This is a big deal for the sport.

 

[granfire]

there you go making sense again. We'll have NONE of that here, thank you very much

I am sorry, I am actively trying to keep it to a minimum, I promise!

 

[d1jinx]

I love the way people turn this into a "What If" deal about sport and street. or sport and art...

Last time I check, the match happened in the ring.... NOT ON THE STREET... unless that was a redlight and a hooker in the background.


Its like saying, pro NBA players would get KILLED on the street in street ball. TWO DIFFERENT SPORTS AND RULES, SURROUNDINGS AND ATMOSPHERES. Some can adapt, some WOULD get killed.

 

[Manny]

I think the same kick Aaron used to nail Steven in the matt can have the same efect on the streets, would I use the sissors kick in the street??? I think I would not, cause this kind of kick I am not used to use it.

In a game like WTF/Olimpic kyorugi we can use what ever we want, the only risk is to be caught and counter like Aaron did with Steven, in the streets you can be hurt pretty bad or be killed.

I think Aaron deserves all the credit for his KO on Steven, and who knows?? maybe this is the beginning of a new TKD Competitor Fighter.

Manny

 

[granfire]

bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt

wrong answer

what hurts the ART is people seeing the SPORT and thinking it is the ART

People see a lot of things and think it's something else.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

To all who seem bent on debating sport versus art, here is your thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1240833#post1240833

Aaron Cook and Steven Lopez competed in a sport and the kick and subsequent KO occurred within the bounds of said sport. Whether or not sport hurts the art, is better or worse than the art, or is any one of a number of other debated things is a completely different topic!

The way that seemingly most of the threads in this section go to this topic, Kukkiwon problems, or child belts has become way more than tiresome. There is nothing wrong with discussing these topics, but they should not be the focal point of the entire taekwondo section.

Daniel

 

[Miles]

Nice kick Aaron and even better sportsmanship by both Steven and Aaron.

I don't know Steven but I'll bet he goes back and trains even harder. He's a world-class athlete and a world-class act.

Aaron is a real- "up and comer" and will be very exciting to watch for a long time.

Re: double kicks-we teach the first kick is like a jab and the second like a cross-there is much more power on the second kick. You don't see too many head-head doubles-very difficult to pull off and there is a longer recovery period (though at this level, they can pull it off better than us average Joes).

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I hope that Steven does use this as a springboard to take his game to the next level for him. Who knows? Aaron could have just turned up the heat in Steven's boilers.

Either way, nice kick!

Daniel

 

[ATC]

Review post #35.

Post #35 was answerd with post #48.

One cannot hurt the other as they are separate entities.

 

[Gorilla]

While I agree that this does not help, it is by far the least of what hurts taekwondo as an art. Rampant commercialization at the expense of the art in pursuit of short term or individual financial gain is the arts biggest enemy. This is independent of the sportive debate.

Daniel

Agreed...My use of hyperbole to prove a point! Complaining is by far the least of TKD's worries. It is just the one that is causing me the most frustration at this time.

 

[ATC]

it isnt a big secret

hands around your waist

no hand techniques

no guarding the groin

too much hugging

too much falling over

all ok in a sport

all will get your butt killed on the street

This does not answer how you know that the "sport" teaches habits that destroy the art.

You simply mentioned things you see when watching the sport. Unless you do the sport and then it somehow degrades what you do when you practice the art or your SD, then you can say something like, "My SD is suffering because I got mugged and I forgot how to block a punch and the mugger punched me and took my money. But other than something like that, your statement really make no sense.

Now if you meant that the perception of the art then maybe I can understand that theory. But there is no way it can destory that art. The art is what it is.

 

[Twin Fist]

I am sorry, I am actively trying to keep it to a minimum, I promise!

you just see to it that you do!!


*watching you*

 

[Twin Fist]

you seem to be under the delusion that people trained in korean hippy skippy kick boxing can flip a switch and go to effective self defense

I have never known of one that could.

habits are habits, and korean kick boxing teaches some HORRID habits

 

[dancingalone]

you seem to be under the delusion that people trained in korean hippy skippy kick boxing can flip a switch and go to effective self defense

I would word it another way, but it's true enough that you can "groove" in certain physical movements. I read an anecdote from a karate stylist somewhere where he relates punching someone in the nose in an altercation. The only problem is that he pulled his punch out of habit and only touched the other guy, rather than striking him. Keeping your hands down, backing up to get proper range for a kick, etc, these are all habits that might be good for sport sparring, but could be very bad decisions to make in an actual self-defense situation.

 

[Twin Fist]

exactly right, i touch on this in the other thread

 

[Earl Weiss]

Not sure why you are trying ot equate the two. Most of these competitors do both the art and the sport. Can't for the life of me understand why it is so hard for some to understand this.[/quote

1. Because how you train is how you react.
2. If you are a high level athlete of any sort you will train according to competition rules . You will simply not have the time, energy or mental alacrity to pracice all the neccessary machinations and change the mindset and tactics in any given situation yet maintain the high level of proficiency needed for competiton.

Note that none of the above 2 statements are unique to Olympic style sparring. The same might be said for a high level Judoka vs. a competitve Ju Jitsu guy competing under Ju Jitsu rules.

A high level Olympic Style competitor with street smarts would likely do well in a self defense situation due to advantageous of physicality. But for the average Shmo doing olympic style, they are wide open for basic street punch in the nose.

 

[ATC]

you seem to be under the delusion that people trained in korean hippy skippy kick boxing can flip a switch and go to effective self defense

I have never known of one that could.

habits are habits, and korean kick boxing teaches some HORRID habits

Again. If you don't do then how can you say for certain what it does? Some things percived as habbit are not. We don't train to create habbits, we train to read and react.

 

[ATC]

1. Because how you train is how you react.
2. If you are a high level athlete of any sort you will train according to competition rules . You will simply not have the time, energy or mental alacrity to pracice all the neccessary machinations and change the mindset and tactics in any given situation yet maintain the high level of proficiency needed for competiton.

Note that none of the above 2 statements are unique to Olympic style sparring. The same might be said for a high level Judoka vs. a competitve Ju Jitsu guy competing under Ju Jitsu rules.

A high level Olympic Style competitor with street smarts would likely do well in a self defense situation due to advantageous of physicality. But for the average Shmo doing olympic style, they are wide open for basic street punch in the nose.

You just said that you train to react. Not we train to make habbits.

I box as well as do TKD. I have never in sparring with someone in a boxing ring tried to kick them.

Also after sometime learning how to do the sport of WTF competition I have never punched anyone in the face.

It did take some time to not reflex to punch the face but after sometime it is possible. But I can still step into a boxing ring and box and just use my hands, then flip back to WTF sparing and only use my feet. But I will punch to the hogu.

The brain is a remarkable thing and has the ability to learn manythings well.